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Libertarianism and the Environment. (Read 408 times)
Land of Freedom
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #10 - Feb 2nd, 2010 at 11:08pm
 
There are many issues for libertarians. Who decides on issues such as the environment? Government? Politically motivated groups? Scientists that are looking for funding? What about coercion (force) imposed on others that disagree with what they see as politically motivated scientists like Al Gore? No freedom there. That's tyranny and not libertarian.

There are libertarian solutions. People that believe in something, like certain environmental concerned can use free market solutions that do not infringe on other's freedom. Moral persuasion works better than top heavy government solutions that lead to corruption and the inevitable evasion of laws or the movement away from the reach of government heavy fist-ed authority.

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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #11 - Feb 3rd, 2010 at 4:24am
 
Land of Freedom wrote on Feb 2nd, 2010 at 11:08pm:
There are many issues for libertarians. Who decides on issues such as the environment? Government? Politically motivated groups? Scientists that are looking for funding? What about coercion (force) imposed on others that disagree with what they see as politically motivated scientists like Al Gore? No freedom there. That's tyranny and not libertarian.

There are libertarian solutions. People that believe in something, like certain environmental concerned can use free market solutions that do not infringe on other's freedom. Moral persuasion works better than top heavy government solutions that lead to corruption and the inevitable evasion of laws or the movement away from the reach of government heavy fist-ed authority.



That's why we, as libertarians, have to figure something out... We're putting our heads in the sand in regards to CO2 emissions while the government is moving fast...

<moral persuasion>
Here I am, as a libertarian, trying to convince you that the environment is shared property between us and future generations. When we change it in anyway without knowing the consequences (proven or unproven) we could very well be robbing the future's right to a stable environment. That's why we should minimize our activities' environmental side effects as much as possible.
</moral persuasion>

Otherwise, the scientists are going to come up with something, the government is going to use what the scientists come up with and implement some sort of over-blown bureaucratic structure to deal with it!

Yes, I'm advocating for the unborn children of ours.

Remember when taxes were low and government was small. People didn't fix their own problems, and so governments moved to 'solve' them.
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Land of Freedom
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #12 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 4:57pm
 
The problem for future generations is governments that "implement some sort of over-blown bureaucratic structure".

It's often not the issue itself but that the socialists use one issue or another to expand their reach. Don't get caught up in trying to solve the issue or an imagined issue. The socialists will always have a scare tactic or another exaggerated "crises" to demand more government. There is no end to their calls for more government so keep the focus on limiting government or ending it rather than play catch up with what ever story they are pushing today.
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BlackSand
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #13 - Feb 6th, 2010 at 1:01am
 
I urge you guys to read Super Freakanomics. Its a very interesting perspective on Global warming.

http://intellectualventureslab.com/?tag=stratoshield

We know how to cool the earth pretty much instantly. And millionaires could do it if they wanted to. They could also hold the world hostage by threatening to cool the earth if they wanted too I suppose.

And a general consensus among scientists is that CO2 is vastly exaggerated. And Cows are much more worrisome than every car combined running 24/7. Even water warms the earth faster.

As for tree's. Trees apparently warm the atmosphere because theyre dark in color. And also tree's are much more healthier if there is much more CO2 than in the current earths atmosphere. And that during the dinosaurs, when CO2 was like 200% of what it is, tree's were doing awesome. And right now, theyre pretty much choking.

So all in all, what I gather from all the evidence is this.

The science is too iffy to try and do anything about it right now. We need to let it play out. And if the earth starts warming too fast, well we know how to cool it down. The only problem is that the atmosphere is changing too fast. Not that it is warming. Warming will improve crops, could even end world hunger. Especially cause were figuring out how to redirect rain clouds. But weather is a dangerous toy for millionaires.

But acting before we have enough info is more dangerous. Al Gore is a typical politician. Dont listen to a single word he says.

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Richard Enderle
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #14 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 11:59pm
 
There is a case for regulations that are not contradictory to laissez-faire capitalism. Regulation on air pollution is a notable one. If you objectively pollute the air, it is inherently a violation of a person's rights.

But we're all kidding ourselves if we think regulations on air pollution will change anything. Smog is bad for humans, and toxic waste is bad for humans. This is a scientific problem, not a political one. Scientific problems should have scientific solutions.

Big government is bad for the environment. Here's why:

Overpopulation:

- Medicare, Social Security, and FICA - ponzi schemes that are inherently dependent on future generations being more populous than the one before it, thus, the government must encourage people to have children. People who shouldn't have children. More children to exhale C02, more children to consume the earth's natural resources, more children to overpopulate.

- Welfare - Welfare inherently rewards parents who have more kids. People who are not financially equipped to have children, shouldn't. They need to accept this and put their child up for adoption.

Public ownership:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/us/13water.html

- In Pennsylvania, a coal plant found a way to avoid polluting the air... at the expense of the waterways. They would clean the pipes by rinsing it out occasionally, and then dumping it in the waterways. The federal government fails miserably at punishing them, because of bureaucracy. If the waterways were privately owned, the owners of them would not crappity smack around. If a coal plant dumped the dirty water into the waterways, it would infringe on the private property rights of the person, and that person would be more militant about suing.

Keep Government to a minimum, basically:

- The Federal government is the biggest polluter, unfortunately. The Pentagon and the Environment Protection Agency are the worst.

This kind of stuff will get you lynched by liberals
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Land of Freedom
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #15 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 2:37pm
 
What's a libertarian position on population? The term "over population" means that there is a level of normal or best level of population. What reason would anyone come to such a determination? It would require knowing "everything" like socialists or Marxists believe they can know the market, people, technology etc.
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Richard Enderle
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #16 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 2:34pm
 
Overpopulation is when the government encourages or forces people to populate, underpopulation is when the government encourages of forces people to refrain from it.

People should only reproduce if they are financially equipped to do so, or mature enough to do so. If they aren't, then they'll have to put it up for adoption. Any system with a social security system will inevitably result in the government socially engineering people to have sex. That's what happened in Soviet Russia and Communist China, they encouraged people to reproduce because their social ponzi schemes depended on it.
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meric
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #17 - Feb 14th, 2010 at 11:11am
 
BlackSand wrote on Feb 6th, 2010 at 1:01am:
We know how to cool the earth pretty much instantly. And millionaires could do it if they wanted to. They could also hold the world hostage by threatening to cool the earth if they wanted too I suppose.


The company looks suspect to me... but anyways...  after reading john mccarthy's text at http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/index.html ... Im a bit convinced that even if we screw it up badly future generations will be desperate enough to fix it. (for those who dont know him, he is a computer scientist who invented the lisp programming language.)

I agree with your interpretation of "overpopulation", I'm concerned about that also...

its interesting to note that part of the cause of the famines in china was because the government's population estimate wayy underestimated the actual population, miscalculating required food production.
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #18 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 2:25pm
 
Leading climate expert admits global warming fraud

Why its necessary to keep government out of such issues. The government is as likely to be imposing freedom ending measures on a hoax as any other issue in question.
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BlackSand
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Re: Libertarianism and the Environment.
Reply #19 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 4:11pm
 
Even though I dont believe global warming is human caused. I think we all agree that pollution should be minimized. Even if we dont agree with the way congress does it.

And over population scares me a bit. But not enough for me to do anything about it. Well colonize mars eventually anyways. Tongue
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