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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Immigration reform and Xenophobia. (Read 5900 times)
The Free Man
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #10 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 3:15pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 7:59am:
The US is going backwards with borders. The border stations between France and Germany, which fought a lot of bloody wars, are now closed, and there are signs saying Welcome to France, Welcome to Germany.  Here in the US you used to be able to drive freely between the US, Canada and Mexico, but now you go through a lot of bullshit.

The only property I want to protect in central North America is my house.  If a Mexican, Canadian, or Iraqi, for that matter, want to occupy it, they have to pay me enough money for it, and then maybe I'll move to Ireland or the south of France, where my nephew just took a job with Grumman.


Grin On an unrelated side note do not move to Ireland...
  
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The Free Man
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #11 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 3:20pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 3:00pm:
Right now the U.S. population is about 320 million.  At what number should we start worrying about overpopulation?


The theory of "Overpopulation" was another one of those failed concepts from the early 1900s (Eugenics and Modern Socialism were theorized in this time period as well). The earth's carrying capacity is near infinite. And just take cities like Manilla (1,700,000 people in 38 square miles) which proves that the Earth will never be overpopulated.
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #12 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 5:19pm
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Steve in VC wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 12:10pm:
I see several issues with "no borders".  (Of course, the Democrat's and Republican's have a defacto open border policy).

We currently have about 5% of the population of Mexico here illegally.  5% of the worlds population would be 300M - doubling the US population.  Can we assimilate that many people in 1 year, 5 years, 10?

Given a choice, why wouldn't we give preferential treatment to those that would augment the US economy?  If so, then the borders can't just be open.

Would the open border be recipricated?

How do you prevent countries from shipping their undesirables here?  Or criminals from coming on their own, figuring we are rich and easy picking.


For all intents and purposes the individual states have open borders.  Texas doesn't limit the number of people moving to Texas from Nebraska, New Mexico, Arizona, etc.  Should Texas then worry about California shipping its criminals to Texas or criminals from Colorado assuming Texans are rich and easy picking?  I think the latter is contrary to the actual perception of Americans.  Remember, there are 88 guns for every 100 residents in the US.  It is widely know that Americans freely and openly possess guns so what criminal would come from Mexico to the US thinking that Americans were easy picking?

As to your assumption regarding the outside criminal element, it only speaks to the basis of my argument that immigration debate devolves into xenophobia or fear of foreigners.  If you assume that foreigners are criminal or will unload their criminals and unproductive on Americans, you have a very low perception of humans of differing nationality.  It is my assumption that all humans are inherently good and are thus diverted from that base by external measures.  I would assume that with an open border policy, people would come here to make a life and to earn wealth as they did through much of the 19th century and early 20th.

Quote:
Right now the U.S. population is about 320 million.  At what number should we start worrying about overpopulation?


If the US adds 80 million residents from Canada, Mexico, Europe or wherever, those residents would bring with them the demand for resources from those countries.  As demand for food, water, cars, iPhones increases in the US it drops in their countries of origin as well.  If they are eating and living comfortably overseas then there should be no net increase of burden on US supplies.  In fact with as much waste occurs in the US, the demand probably wouldn't necessarily need to drop in other countries to make up that slack. 

The one resource that is on short supply is land.  There is only so much land mass that makes up the US.  Land prices might increase as more people live here, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.  The demand for more land would create new opportunities with existing land that is currently under utilized.  An under performing farmer could sell his land for substantial gains once prices increase and be able to retire without overburdening food production.  The federal government owns a HUGE amount of land and could/should sell their holdings as the demand increases.
  

Keauxbi
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Steve in VC
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #13 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 5:47pm
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keauxbi wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 5:19pm:
For all intents and purposes the individual states have open borders.  Texas doesn't limit the number of people moving to Texas from Nebraska, New Mexico, Arizona, etc.  Should Texas then worry about California shipping its criminals to Texas or criminals from Colorado assuming Texans are rich and easy picking?  I think the latter is contrary to the actual perception of Americans.  Remember, there are 88 guns for every 100 residents in the US.  It is widely know that Americans freely and openly possess guns so what criminal would come from Mexico to the US thinking that Americans were easy picking?
Except, the reality is we do have 12+ million "illegal immigrants".

If you read the links I posted for Germany, France and Netherlands, they had to reign in immigration from the 3rd world.

There isn't the disparity between states that there is even between the country and cities in China.  The pay is far better in the US, than the cities of China, and the cost of living isn't that much higher.

keauxbi wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 5:19pm:
As to your assumption regarding the outside criminal element, it only speaks to the basis of my argument that immigration debate devolves into xenophobia or fear of foreigners.  If you assume that foreigners are criminal or will unload their criminals and unproductive on Americans, you have a very low perception of humans of differing nationality.  It is my assumption that all humans are inherently good and are thus diverted from that base by external measures.  I would assume that with an open border policy, people would come here to make a life and to earn wealth as they did through much of the 19th century and early 20th.
Castro sent a bunch of criminals to the US.  No xenophobia, past experience....
  
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Awesome
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #14 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 7:05pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 3:00pm:
Right now the U.S. population is about 320 million.  At what number should we start worrying about overpopulation?

Never, as long as everyone has absolute property rights. There are no shared resources, so every new person who takes up space will need to pay for it. As long as people won't give away their property, it will only be the newcomers who will be crowded, while the people that were living here from the beginning will not lose any property unless they will sell it voluntarily.
  

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Steve in VC
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #15 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 9:06pm
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Awesome wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 7:05pm:
Never, as long as everyone has absolute property rights. There are no shared resources, so every new person who takes up space will need to pay for it. As long as people won't give away their property, it will only be the newcomers who will be crowded, while the people that were living here from the beginning will not lose any property unless they will sell it voluntarily.
Lets simplify things. 

You work in a company with 100 employees.  Tomorrow, another 100 employees showed up to work.  Pay checks are needed in 2 weeks.  The additional productivity, even if there was the equipment, materials, and space to for that additional 100 to work, doesn't result in income for at least 30 to 90 days.  Add in the need for equipment, materials and space, and the company won't survive. 

The company can grow just as fast as it's cash flow allows.  The same applies to a country.

Now, lets just add 10 people, all to shipping and receiving, currently 3 people.  13 people may be more efficient (or, they may get in their way), but the companies income won't offset the cost of those 10 people.

Lets add 1 to a purchasing team of 2, 2 sales people to a team of 5, and 1 engineer to the companies only engineer.  Purchasing now has the time to shop for more cost effective parts, and more than makes up that person's salary.  Increasing the sales force increases sales enough to pay thier salary.  The big benefit is the second engineer.  Now when the first engineer has a problem, there is someone they can bounce ideas off, combined, they accomplish 4 times more what was done before.  Adding the right 4 was hugely beneficial.

The point, there is more to immigration, than just numbers.  There is a reason for selecting those that contribute to the economy.
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #16 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 9:30pm
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Steve in VC wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 9:06pm:
Lets simplify things. 

You work in a company with 100 employees.  Tomorrow, another 100 employees showed up to work.  Pay checks are needed in 2 weeks.  The additional productivity, even if there was the equipment, materials, and space to for that additional 100 to work, doesn't result in income for at least 30 to 90 days.  Add in the need for equipment, materials and space, and the company won't survive. 

The company can grow just as fast as it's cash flow allows.  The same applies to a country.

Now, lets just add 10 people, all to shipping and receiving, currently 3 people.  13 people may be more efficient (or, they may get in their way), but the companies income won't offset the cost of those 10 people.

Lets add 1 to a purchasing team of 2, 2 sales people to a team of 5, and 1 engineer to the companies only engineer.  Purchasing now has the time to shop for more cost effective parts, and more than makes up that person's salary.  Increasing the sales force increases sales enough to pay thier salary.  The big benefit is the second engineer.  Now when the first engineer has a problem, there is someone they can bounce ideas off, combined, they accomplish 4 times more what was done before.  Adding the right 4 was hugely beneficial.

The point, there is more to immigration, than just numbers.  There is a reason for selecting those that contribute to the economy.


You went for simple but went too simple.  Just because immigrants are coming to this country does not mean that we are forced to employ them.  In your scenario when the additional 100 people show up for a job they don't have, they go home and aren't employed.  If from the 100, 10 are needed in shipping/receiving then they'll be kept on and 90 are sent home.  The same would apply for immigration.  With the recent recession/depression, the numbers of immigrants coming to and staying in the country has declined because of the lack of jobs.  The number of people here illegally has also gone down, the number of people illegally crossing the border has gone down because there aren't enough jobs to draw/keep those people here. 

Additionally if there are more people here competing for fewer jobs, at some point people will start selling there labor for less.  A job that currently pays $15/hr for one person could be filled by 2 people making minimum wage.  If one of those people is a good for nothing layabout, or any employee for that matter, they would lose their job and the harder worker would then get the appropriate pay for their labor.
  

Keauxbi
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Steve in VC
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #17 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 10:48pm
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keauxbi wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 9:30pm:
If the US adds 80 million residents, ....those residents would bring with them the demand for resources from those countries.  ...there should be no net increase of burden on US supplies.

There are no shared resources, so every new person who takes up space will need to pay for it.

Just because immigrants are coming to this country does not mean that we are forced to employ them. 

Additionally if there are more people here competing for fewer jobs, at some point people will start selling there labor for less.
Look what happens when you look at your list of solutions.   
  
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Libertarian For Our Future
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #18 - Jan 30th, 2013 at 10:56pm
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I think immigration is vital to any country. However, if they come over illegally, there is an economical problem with that, especially considering we are paying for their welfare as well. As well as health insurance, what country in the world do you know does that?

I'm at no point saying they're not under hard times and need help, even us legal Americans need help. However, I'm not going to steal from multiple people just to feed a homeless person. It doesn't justify anything. Then, if we dig deeper into this, many states give out social security numbers, allow them to attend Universities/Colleges of their choice, and so many other things that cost the taxpayers more money.

With this latest immigration reform bill coming around, I think it's bogus that we are allowing these folks to get into the front of the line. So it's ok for them to break the law, come out and say they broke the law, we slap them on the wrist with back taxs & fines, and that's it? I'm sorry, if it's ok for them to do that, what about those who are trying to get into this country legally? They are pushed to the back behind those who came here illegally.

If we get into the companies who hired these folks illegally, people who drive to their local Home Depot or U-Haul to grab a few illegal immigrants to work in their house, and many other aspects, you have to realize what impact we're having on the economy, domestically & nationally. You are taking away high wage jobs because it's cheaper to employ them at lower wages. Not only that, you're not paying taxes on them, as an employer. So the work you would've had a private contractor do or maybe a full time employee, you now have an undocumented employee doing the work at a lower cost. Why would a company hire someone at a higher rate plus pay taxes on them when they can simply hire an undocumented worker at a vastly lower cost? You have to think of it just as bad as the high corporate taxes that are the cause of shipping jobs overseas. The same concept can be applied here as well.

My personal opinion is improve the system of getting legal citizenship in the USA, document/deport all illegal immigrants, if they wish to come back into America, they will have to wait at the back of the line and have to pay any back taxes/fines they've accrued, then let them gain citizenship that way.

The more I think about the massive amount of issues going on in America, the more I realize just how messed up of a system we truly have. So many things are interlinked together that it will seriously take generations to get America back in the right direction and that, to me, is pretty sad. Here's a graphic I found that highlights the top 10 facts about illegal immigrants in our country, just to give everyone an idea. Some might be a bit radical, but some have very serious implications on us.

  
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Confederaterocker
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #19 - Jan 31st, 2013 at 12:47am
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Bourgeois wrote on Jan 30th, 2013 at 2:23am:
I am fine with immigration in a libertarian society, but because of the state, it is not economically feasible. I'm not saying the state should completely restrict borders, but, if it is to have open borders, then it must not be handing out welfare, as Free Man said. To me closed borders + less welfare makes more sense than open borders + more welfare. There are so many immigrants that the division of wealth in welfare proframmes will be extremely intensified, and there will be a lot of tension on the system.

So in order of my preferences, from best to worst scenario:

(1). No State, and private landowners determine who is allowed to cross where (and for whatever reason such as cheap labour).

(2). Open borders + no welfare to immigrants (unlikely to happen)

(3). Closed borders + no welfare to immigrants

(4). Open borders with rampant welfare issues and redistribution of wealth from the original population. (It's not a small amount of people).


  Good post Bourg!!  The illegals will vote for welfare and establish a permanent democratic party. I fear Racial tribal violence. La Raza does not like whites and that is a fact. Open borders does bring more crime as Northern Mexico is the most violent country in the world. I've met nice Mexicans here south of tampa, but I'm very concerned about the Future. And yes legalizing weed would help situation.
       The states deserve a common defense through  border security. Anyone against  border security belongs in jail before they belong in office. I hate Mccain and Grahmnesty!!
Take care!!
Jack
  
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