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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Immigration reform and Xenophobia. (Read 5983 times)
Liberalterian
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #40 - Feb 4th, 2013 at 3:59pm
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I just never took the overpopulation arguments as serious because the doomsayers of overpopulation have been proven wrong time and time again. In fact, over the past decades food production has been increasing more than population growth. The rapid development of technology in the past few decades allows for our population to grow rapidly as well.
  
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Libertarian For Our Future
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #41 - Feb 5th, 2013 at 12:55pm
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I also don't believe over-population will be an issue. If it was truly a free-market, things would right itself. Folks aren't to migrate were there are scarce resources. The reason folks are always wanting to come to America is because of the amount of resources we generate.

The way I look at it is this, if there was an issue of no to limited resources, there wouldn't be a reason why many folks are overweight, getting type 2 diabetes, and having other health related issues for being over-weight. The fact is we have an abundance of resources and folks are going to eat, it's human nature. We can get into the debate of why this is the case (High in sugar, fast food restaurants, artificial products, etc), but the resources have to come from somewhere.

I'm also not overly concerned with illegal immigrants deteriorating a country that's already deteriorating. The fact remains is we'll still be in the same rut, we'll still be spending outrageously, we'll still be fighting unnecessary wars, and we'll still be sending foreign aid to countries that run their countries as dictators. Just because folks come over illegally isn't going to stop that. Folks believe that they are taking our jobs, they are draining our economy, this that and the other. If we had no welfare programs (Public schools included), they wouldn't be able to use it. If we had companies who will get in serious trouble for breaking the law, they wouldn't hire illegal immigrants.

The fact is most people want to attack a symptom of the problem and not the source. It's like having a runny nose, you go to the pharmacy to get some sort of cold medicine, not a box of tissues to wipe your nose. Illegal immigration occurs, it's just the fact of life. No matter how hard you try to stop it, it's just going to happen. If you stop giving them incentives to come here, stop companies from hiring illegal immigrants by shutting them down and fining them, and make it illegal for them to get any type of welfare program from the states, we wouldn't need to worry about it as much.

Fix the broken system, the rest will fix itself.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #42 - Feb 5th, 2013 at 1:59pm
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The main problem with massive immigration is that those on the left will want to extend to the poor immigrants, legal or not, government benefits.  When I worked at Walmart, I constantly had to help immigrants, who couldn't speak English, find WIC items.
  
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Libertarian For Our Future
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #43 - Feb 5th, 2013 at 2:41pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Feb 5th, 2013 at 1:59pm:
The main problem with massive immigration is that those on the left will want to extend to the poor immigrants, legal or not, government benefits.  When I worked at Walmart, I constantly had to help immigrants, who couldn't speak English, find WIC items.

Exactly my point, Ruby. Rather than worry about folks coming into America illegally, stop allowing them to get free things on our tax dollars. If you stop that, what incentives do they have to come here?

However, I second your point that they will look to expand it. The immigration reform bill they are looking to pass will cost the America people several trillion dollars. They justify it by saying 'the amount of money we'll receive from back taxes, penalties, and fines' will make up for it. The problem with that ill-faded logic is, if they are smart (In which, I believe most of them are because they wouldn't be here if they weren't), anyone can say 'I've only been working here for 2 months'. Who is going to say other wise? Who has paperwork that says they've been in the country longer? I can send one under the bus and say they've sent their child to school but they don't work and have been on welfare the entire time, so they'll just pay the penalty/fine. Meanwhile, those who have been here for several years, won't pay a fraction of what they should have.

That's why I say you stop welfare, stop allowing them to obtain jobs by closing businesses who hire illegal immigrants while fining them, and if not have them deported, make it to the point where they have to rely on the same principles we've been talking about. Relying on private churches & organizations to provide them with food & shelter. They come here because they can get a job, get onto welfare, and get the same education as we all can. If you stop allowing it, there is 0 incentive for it to happen and they'll have to obtain citizenship the legal way. Furthermore, they will have to wait at the end of the list as I also don't believe it's right that they can leap frog over all of those who've been waiting, paid the fees to obtain citizenship, and went through massive hurdles to get where they are.
  
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flipswitch
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #44 - Feb 6th, 2013 at 8:00am
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Libertarian For Our Future wrote on Feb 5th, 2013 at 2:41pm:
Exactly my point, Ruby. Rather than worry about folks coming into America illegally, stop allowing them to get free things on our tax dollars. If you stop that, what incentives do they have to come here?

However, I second your point that they will look to expand it. The immigration reform bill they are looking to pass will cost the America people several trillion dollars. They justify it by saying 'the amount of money we'll receive from back taxes, penalties, and fines' will make up for it. The problem with that ill-faded logic is, if they are smart (In which, I believe most of them are because they wouldn't be here if they weren't), anyone can say 'I've only been working here for 2 months'. Who is going to say other wise? Who has paperwork that says they've been in the country longer? I can send one under the bus and say they've sent their child to school but they don't work and have been on welfare the entire time, so they'll just pay the penalty/fine. Meanwhile, those who have been here for several years, won't pay a fraction of what they should have.

That's why I say you stop welfare, stop allowing them to obtain jobs by closing businesses who hire illegal immigrants while fining them, and if not have them deported, make it to the point where they have to rely on the same principles we've been talking about. Relying on private churches & organizations to provide them with food & shelter. They come here because they can get a job, get onto welfare, and get the same education as we all can. If you stop allowing it, there is 0 incentive for it to happen and they'll have to obtain citizenship the legal way. Furthermore, they will have to wait at the end of the list as I also don't believe it's right that they can leap frog over all of those who've been waiting, paid the fees to obtain citizenship, and went through massive hurdles to get where they are.



This was a good post.

Eliminating their ability to get free healthcare, jobs, etc will be that "great wall" some of the republicans have talked about building.

And I would just like to add something.

Illegal Mexicans do not do jobs white people dont want to work, they just work for so cheap, no American in their right mind would want to compete.

  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #45 - Feb 7th, 2013 at 9:43am
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The solution is to dismantle the welfare state and then have free immigration. There is absolutely no reason for immigrants to be deported from the United States if they have no way of abusing any systems.
  

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RubyHypatia
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #46 - Feb 7th, 2013 at 10:24pm
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How likely will it be for the welfare state to be dismantled?  Giving out freebees is a way to buy votes.  It's hard to compete with Santa Clause.
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #47 - Feb 8th, 2013 at 10:39am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Feb 7th, 2013 at 10:24pm:
How likely will it be for the welfare state to be dismantled?  Giving out freebees is a way to buy votes.  It's hard to compete with Santa Clause.

I say you begin with tax reform.  Hypothetically speaking: we put boxes at the end of a 1040 income tax return.  You'll have one box for every area of government spending, defense, roads & infrastructure, unemployment, welfare, food stamps, etc.  Next to each line you have a ___%.  If you have net payment TO the federal government you get to check the boxes as to where you want your tax dollars to go and you get to determine the % of your tax dollars that go to that line item.  Once the IRS determines how much money goes to which program, those programs are funded accordingly.  IF welfare/food stamp spending only gets a 1% of tax payer funding, then the program is tied to that funding.   Cool

Of course, were I the sovereign in the white house there'd be a lot of change within government that I'd basically have to hold congress hostage to enact and welfare and the current tax code would become things of the past.
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #48 - Feb 21st, 2013 at 11:35am
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Libertarian For Our Future wrote on Feb 5th, 2013 at 2:41pm:
Exactly my point, Ruby. Rather than worry about folks coming into America illegally, stop allowing them to get free things on our tax dollars. If you stop that, what incentives do they have to come here?

However, I second your point that they will look to expand it. The immigration reform bill they are looking to pass will cost the America people several trillion dollars.


It is true that "welfare" and "immigration" are two completely different issues. Of note it is a Republican myth that people immigrate to the United States to take advantage of our welfare programs. There is no question that they do use those welfare programs but that is NOT their reason for immigrating to the United States. Overwhelmingly they're coming here for work and the American Dream. This myth is similiar the the "anchor baby" myth propagated by Republicans. Immigrants don't come to the United States to have babies because they will become US Citizens based upon the inalienable Right of Citizenship based upon jus soli as defined and protected by the 14th Amendment. Anadotal exceptions don't count because they are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

Actually immigration does increase the US economy by trillions of dollars. Unskiled immigrants provide low cost labor and we actually have a significant shortage of unskilled low cost labor. Tens of thousands of enterprised don't exist because they would require unskilled low cost labor and there is a huge shortage of people to fill this niche in our labor market. The consumption by these unskilled immigrants increases the demands for products that are provided by other enterprises creating higher paying jobs for semi-skilled and skilled Americans.

Let me provide a simple example of just one such "benefit" to the American economy. There are roughly 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States. The housing requirements alone for these individuals is responsible for over $100 billions in "housing" construction that wouldn't have occurred if they weren't here. Add to that how many grocery clerks are required just to checkout these "illegal" immigrants at the market. How much energy do they consume creating jobs in the energy industries.

When it is all totalled together we find that immigrants do increase jobs for "Americans" and those jobs are higher paying than they would be otherwise because the more job opening the higher the wages are because the labor force for these jobs is really very limited. We need more immigrants, not less, because immigration labor is at the bottom of the economic ladder that fuels the US economy.
 
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Immigration reform and Xenophobia.
Reply #49 - Feb 21st, 2013 at 11:41am
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keauxbi wrote on Feb 8th, 2013 at 10:39am:
I say you begin with tax reform. 


The first tax reform we need is for Congress to impose the taxation necessary to fund the expendatures they authorize. If the American People can't afford the taxes then Congress will need to reduce the expendatures but there is no excuse for Congress not meeting it's fiscal responsibility to fund expendatures.

There has been no justification for even one dime of deficit spending since WW II.

  
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