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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Religion and Personal Freedom (Read 3600 times)
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #10 - Feb 18th, 2013 at 10:03am
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No, after he/she tried to shame certain members because of their virginity and "lack of life experience" I doubt he/she's a fundie.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #11 - Feb 19th, 2013 at 9:49am
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No, after he/she tried to shame certain members because of their virginity and "lack of life experience" I doubt he/she's a fundie.


I've never thought there was a problem with having too many virgins in this world.
  
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #12 - Feb 19th, 2013 at 11:26am
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I agree with Crystallas's perspective. I went to public & private (Catholic) school when I was in Elementary, Middle, & High School (Let's just say I bounced around from school to school until I got to the 8th grade). To be honest, I learned a lot about life and various cultures because of school. Furthermore, I think I learned more about that than I did anything else (I think it's more because of our great American educational system...but I digress).

My family pick and chooses when they are religious (Lent, Ash Wednesday, etc). My wife & her family are very strict religious as her mom goes to church every weekend, more if various religious holidays fall during the week, and strictly follow the bible. One of her cousins husband's family is Jewish so we have to take note of that for holidays. I've worked with Muslims so we had to work with them so they could follow their religious beliefs as well. My mother-in-laws brother is vegan so separate meals has to be cooked for him as well.

My point being is I only believe in one God, I have no religious ties to any religion. However, none of the religions or beliefs bother me. I will merely point out where I disagree with the religion, so much that my wife gets annoyed with me & my mother-in-law just gives me a look. So they are very aware of my stance. However, by watching them, I believe they feel as though they will become free. What I mean by that is they feel as though they have to follow the rules set forth by their religious beliefs. If they follow along with it, at the end of their journey, they will be set free and will be welcomed into their God's family.

We can argue this point and I won't argue against it. However, I think it becomes an issue, in my eyes, when folks begin to force a religion onto one another. While I agree that we should aide our children and others on the right path, I'll never tell someone how they should get there. I watched The Matrix yesterday and (Maybe I'm over-thinking this or I need to lay off the blue pills Grin) I stand with Morpheus's statement, '...I can only show you the door. You're the one that has walk through it'. In other words, I can't force you to go through this door because it's what I want you to do. I've shown you the way to what I believe will be better for you, in the long run. However, it's your choice whether you want to walk through it or not.

When we begin to mix religion in with politics, that's when folks begin to force their beliefs onto others. I say leave religion & agendas at the door once you get into office. Unfortunately, money & power harness evil to be enacted by evil people. If we can't money away, there only leaves one thing to take away.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #13 - Feb 19th, 2013 at 12:34pm
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I watched a show today about people who are ex-Amish.  A lot of them are cut off from their families because they chose to leave their Amish communities.  They are shunned, not allowed to even go back for a visit.  It helps that these ex-Amish have formed their own community of support.  Still, it would be hard having to decide between family and freedom.
  
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #14 - Feb 19th, 2013 at 2:03pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Feb 19th, 2013 at 12:34pm:
I watched a show today about people who are ex-Amish. A lot of them are cut off from their families because they chose to leave their Amish communities. They are shunned, not allowed to even go back for a visit. It helps that these ex-Amish have formed their own community of support. Still, it would be hard having to decide between family and freedom.

Yeah, my wife and I watched a couple of those shows. It is pretty depressing because they've been literally cut off from their family because they're not following in the Amish's beliefs.

While I will state it's their right to do it, I won't say that I agree with it. I'm a firm believer in knowledge is power. If we force folks to only do certain things, we limit their abilities to be able to do other things. Further accentuating the point, you don't allow folks to tap into their deepest ability. If they chose to continue following along with your beliefs, that's their choose. If they don't, I don't believe that they should be dis-owned either.

There could be obvious reason's to dis-own your children, I don't think religion/beliefs should be one of them.
  
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #15 - Feb 20th, 2013 at 11:51am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Feb 15th, 2013 at 10:45pm:
My grandparents were fundie Christians and they took me to church.


I believe that brainwashing is a form of child abuse which really pisses off most Christians. Young children are incapable of actually understanding religion and philosophy and the parents (or grandparents) taking them to church before they are old enough to understand religion and philosophy is religious brainwashing and is therefore child abuse.

We prevent other forms of child abuse to protect the inalieanble Rights of the child so why do we allow religious brainwashing of children?


  
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Crystallas
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #16 - Feb 20th, 2013 at 11:58am
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John Locke breaks down the concept of equality very well for the argument of "brainwashing".

The simple explanation in Lockean philosophy, is the person doesn't know any better. At this point, it is hard to fault them, and you can only fault them when you do know better. Otherwise you are left with an endless paradox. Thus, diversity is always king in the social environment, much like choice is king of the marketplace.
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #17 - Feb 21st, 2013 at 10:59am
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Crystallas wrote on Feb 20th, 2013 at 11:58am:
John Locke breaks down the concept of equality very well for the argument of "brainwashing".

The simple explanation in Lockean philosophy, is the person doesn't know any better. At this point, it is hard to fault them, and you can only fault them when you do know better. Otherwise you are left with an endless paradox. Thus, diversity is always king in the social environment, much like choice is king of the marketplace.


Very interesting. So, because I know that indoctrinating someone incapable of understanding is brainwashing I have a responsibility to explain this to others that are ignorant of what they are doing. Once they know that what they're doing is actually brainwashing their children then they have no excuse for continuing it or for not informing others of the problem.

BTW I never really had a problem with "Christians" denying that brainwashing was child abuse. The only problem they had was either in recognizing that the indoctrination of children before they're old enough to understand religion and philosophy was brainwashing or that brainwashing was acceptable if it was done for "Christian" religious purposes (they generally objected to Muslim religious brainwashing of children).
  
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Crystallas
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #18 - Feb 21st, 2013 at 11:28am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Feb 21st, 2013 at 10:59am:
Very interesting. So, because I know that indoctrinating someone incapable of understanding is brainwashing I have a responsibility to explain this to others that are ignorant of what they are doing. Once they know that what they're doing is actually brainwashing their children then they have no excuse for continuing it or for not informing others of the problem.

BTW I never really had a problem with "Christians" denying that brainwashing was child abuse. The only problem they had was either in recognizing that the indoctrination of children before they're old enough to understand religion and philosophy was brainwashing or that brainwashing was acceptable if it was done for "Christian" religious purposes (they generally objected to Muslim religious brainwashing of children).


Simply explaining to a brainwashed person, that they are brainwashed, has been demonstrated to be ineffective. You, and others, would have to actually convince them. The best method, is leading a person to discover it, on what seems to be, their own merit. Further more reason to introduce someone into (small o)objectivism(not necessarily "converting", just the concept of drawing conclusions based on objectivity.)

What one person may say is brainwashing, another may see the counter-culture element as brainwashing as well. So even with objective thinking, everyone would be best served by choosing their battles and getting priorities straight. Therefore we still fall back on the NAA, because a non-violent person is not a priority over a violent person, ect, ect.
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Religion and Personal Freedom
Reply #19 - Feb 21st, 2013 at 11:45am
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Crystallas wrote on Feb 21st, 2013 at 11:28am:
Simply explaining to a brainwashed person, that they are brainwashed, has been demonstrated to be ineffective. You, and others, would have to actually convince them. The best method, is leading a person to discover it, on what seems to be, their own merit. Further more reason to introduce someone into (small o)objectivism(not necessarily "converting", just the concept of drawing conclusions based on objectivity.)

What one person may say is brainwashing, another may see the counter-culture element as brainwashing as well. So even with objective thinking, everyone would be best served by choosing their battles and getting priorities straight. Therefore we still fall back on the NAA, because a non-violent person is not a priority over a violent person, ect, ect.


I agree that I have a responsibility to present compelling arguments which convince other people. Of course there are religious bigots that wouldn't be convinced regardless of how compelling the arguments are.

  
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