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CmdrSlander
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Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Feb 24th, 2013 at 2:41am
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Though gun rights may seem to be a staple issue of establishment conservatives and are associated with despicable acts of violence, Libertarians should defend them to the utmost.

Targeted most heavily by new gun restrictions are limits on magazine capacity, the logic being that if a shooter has to reload more they can be brought down more easily. This argument has been thoroughly discredited by firearms experts but of course, firearms experts tend to be affiliated with the NRA and therefore, in the eyes of emotionally driven leftists, cannot be trusted and are partially responsible for the outbursts of violence that have occurred recently. Magazine capacity restrictions and bans and on "assault weapons" especially the New York SAFE Act and laws being proposed in New Jersey are a boldfaced affront to property rights. These bans do not actually allow you to keep your own guns and accessories, indeed you are REQUIRED (on pain of felony conviction that is in the same class as rape in NY) to sell them to an out of stater.

That's right... the second the law goes into effect your lawfully acquired private property becomes the property of the state and shall be confiscated, and if you don't want the state to have it you are required to sell it before the law goes into effect. Just as the Affordable Care Act forced Americans to buy health insurance the SAFE act and its ilk force Americans to sell their property, and if they don't, and are caught with it, they will be treated not only as a criminal, but as a depraved and violent criminal in the same class as a rapist or child molester. 

Very recently a New York man who was a decorated combat veteran was attempting to comply with the new law and sell his 30 round magazines out of state, when he was stopped by NY authorities on the way out of the state to conduct the transaction he was arrested and is going to be imprisoned alongside violent offenders - for possessing a plastic box with a spring in it. Even if he had faced no criminal penalties, his mags still would have been taken without due process of law.

Furthermore, possessing magazines over 7 rounds is considered to be so egregious by the state of NY that if you had them and the state found out, they would be legally permitted to surround your home and kill you, Waco style, they can and will initiate violence to counter a passive and nonviolent act - that of possessing a plastic box with a spring in it.

I don't care if you dislike gun owners, see them as rednecks or some such stereotype, if you give a frak about property rights you need to kill these laws.
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #1 - Feb 24th, 2013 at 3:33am
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Individualists already do oppose new gun restrictions, but instead of devoting time and energy fighting each and every new statist encroachment, might it  not be better to try to defend against statism, The Most Dangerous Superstition, in general?
  
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CmdrSlander
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #2 - Feb 24th, 2013 at 3:38am
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But defeating these encroachments is a part of defeating statism. If every encroachment is met with a resounded "Hell no!" their machinations will be severely curtailed.
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #3 - Feb 24th, 2013 at 4:19am
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CmdrSlander wrote on Feb 24th, 2013 at 3:38am:
But defeating these encroachments is a part of defeating statism. If every encroachment is met with a resounded "Hell no!" their machinations will be severely curtailed.


Victor Hugo said "Armies cannot stop an idea whose time has come."  Socialist statism was ushered in with Marx in the late 19th century and is now definitely an idea whose time has come.  Isn't trying to fight each and every encroachment through lobbying and filing lawsuits against an idea that "armies cannot stop" a waste of time and energy?  It might also be a waste of time to try to fight statism and it's handmaiden, utilitarian ethics, taught on almost all college campuses, by arguing for opposing ideas, such as The Golden Rule, but fighting each and every statist encroachment on a piecemeal basis has already been proven to be a real loser except for politicians,  lobbyists, and lawyers.
  
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Libertarian For Our Future
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #4 - Feb 25th, 2013 at 2:16pm
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While I don't believe every war should be fought, I do believe in fighting for what you believe in. When I say that, just because gun legislation time has come doesn't mean we should all roll over and play dead.

What folks should educate themselves on & fight for is for legislation that is fair & will work to have a positive effect. Outright banning 'assault weapons' & high capacity magazines is like telling a geek you can only have 8GB's of RAM instead of 32GB's and the CPU can only has 1 core as multiple cores is too powerful and is a death machine for all those they wish to play against online (Far fetched, but you get the point). Maryland just began to push for such a law, even going as far as banning certain types of handguns as well. What's even more interesting is even if you legally own the gun before the law is in place, you can't transport the gun anywhere. If they catch you, the police have a right to take the gun and never return it to you.

If the issue is curbing gun violence, why not looking at the root cause of violence? Baltimore is one of the worse cities for gun violence. More times than not, people are being killed in gangs & drugs. These folks have already obtained their guns, what makes you think they care what law is enacted? That isn't going to stop them from committing the crimes.

2 glaring factors, I believe, are the leading cause for this. The lack of proper education & the war on drugs. If we can better educate the children to make better decisions and become smarter overall, they won't choose a life of crime as their only means of survival. Furthermore, if you take away the drugs, they nothing to fight over as anyone can get the goods anywhere they want in the state. Then again, that's just my theory and I've gotten off-topic.

In the end, I believe in my right to own guns. I believe any type of ban on guns is the politicians way of say 'I have no idea what to do about it, so I'm just going to make it illegal so I don't have to worry about it' and think the problem is solved. What history has shown us is that, time in & time again, this is a bad fallacy and the people, who are they most trying to protect, are the ones who end getting hurt the worst.
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #5 - Feb 25th, 2013 at 5:20pm
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Libertarian For Our Future wrote on Feb 25th, 2013 at 2:16pm:
While I don't believe every war should be fought, I do believe in fighting for what you believe in. When I say that, just because gun legislation time has come doesn't mean we should all roll over and play dead.

What folks should educate themselves on & fight for is for legislation that is fair & will work to have a positive effect. Outright banning 'assault weapons' & high capacity magazines is like telling a geek you can only have 8GB's of RAM instead of 32GB's and the CPU can only has 1 core as multiple cores is too powerful and is a death machine for all those they wish to play against online (Far fetched, but you get the point). Maryland just began to push for such a law, even going as far as banning certain types of handguns as well. What's even more interesting is even if you legally own the gun before the law is in place, you can't transport the gun anywhere. If they catch you, the police have a right to take the gun and never return it to you.

If the issue is curbing gun violence, why not looking at the root cause of violence? Baltimore is one of the worse cities for gun violence. More times than not, people are being killed in gangs & drugs. These folks have already obtained their guns, what makes you think they care what law is enacted? That isn't going to stop them from committing the crimes.

2 glaring factors, I believe, are the leading cause for this. The lack of proper education & the war on drugs. If we can better educate the children to make better decisions and become smarter overall, they won't choose a life of crime as their only means of survival. Furthermore, if you take away the drugs, they nothing to fight over as anyone can get the goods anywhere they want in the state. Then again, that's just my theory and I've gotten off-topic.

In the end, I believe in my right to own guns. I believe any type of ban on guns is the politicians way of say 'I have no idea what to do about it, so I'm just going to make it illegal so I don't have to worry about it' and think the problem is solved. What history has shown us is that, time in & time again, this is a bad fallacy and the people, who are they most trying to protect, are the ones who end getting hurt the worst.


There's nothing wrong with losing battles, but I think individualists should pick their battles carefully, including the battles for the "hearts and minds," with emphasis on the long-term goal, like Ho Chi Minh did, not like John Kennedy's entry into Vietnam and his Bay of Pigs Cuban invasion, or the Bush invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #6 - Feb 26th, 2013 at 7:59am
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First we must admit there are Gun Nuts and Gun Control Freaks and both are extremists that lack substance and logical thinking to support their positions.

Next I believe the NY law is unconstitutional although it will take time for this to be addressed through the federal court system. It imposes an ex post facto criminal condition on a person related to a legally purchaed commodity in requiring them to sell that commodity (large capacity magazines) out of state or be subjected to criminal prosecution if they don't. Person cannot be indicted for a criminal act when they've done absolutely nothing. Criminal acts are just that, the acts of a person. No act, no crime.

There are reasonable matters of "gun control" which address public safety but there are also issues of Constitutional Rights relate to firearms that should be addressed. I don't have any problem with the CCW requirements as carrying a firearm in public does address an issue of public safety. At the sametime I believe we need a federal law that allows a person with a State issued CCW to carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the United States because the CCW permit is a State issued permit that should be accepted in all States under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the US Constitution.

I actually don't oppose the licensing of the individual and the registration of a firearm to be carried in public because that is a public safety issue (just like driving a car on public streets) but I highly oppose any licensing or registration of firearms used exclusively on private property such as those retained in the home for self-defense. Licensing and registration is not required because possession on private property does not create a public safety issue.
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #7 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 8:21am
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Here's just another really revoltin' development.  When are we going to recognize that we're not gong to change anything by playing the political game wtih the statists' ball on the statists' court with statist rules and statist refs?  Rally around Rand Paul?   Grin Ha, ha.  Ha, ha ha!  Gotta love it!  Like a broken record I'm tellin' ya that the bottom line is bashing utilitarian ethics, not supporting Republicans, the LP, or any other politicians.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/26/supreme-court-eavesdropping-...
  
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #8 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 9:03am
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Tom Palven wrote on Feb 28th, 2013 at 8:21am:

I read this yesterday. What's even funnier than this is the fact that they stated that it's only illegal IF the government admits that they were spying on you before they had probable cause. What's so idiotic about this is the fact that they don't even realize or admit that government can spy on you ahead of time, figure out what you're doing, find a probable cause, and then begin to trace you from that point.

Not only that, within this law, they are allowed to eavesdrop on your conversations up to a week prior to them filing the proper paperwork. So even if they don't have probable cause, they have a full week to find something. But no, of course not, there's nothing unconstitutional about that at all.

Further to the point, I knew this would happen once the Supreme Court wouldn't even see the allegations that Obama & his administration forged his documents. When that occurred, I knew they could careless about anything that was in the Constitution. As long as they are all working together, we'll continue to lose our rights.

If this year isn't a wake up call for a revolution, I don't know what is.
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Libertarians should oppose the Northeast's {gun} magazine restrictions
Reply #9 - Feb 28th, 2013 at 2:56pm
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FWIW I've heard it said that you might only need 5% or less of a population physically engaged in a revolution against a large, well-equipped army if the rebels have a majority of people (the hearts and minds thing) on their side.  Unfortunately in the US probably the vast majority of people feel that a heavy dose of statism is, if not truly beneficial, at least a necessary evil.  When feudalism ruled the world Marxist socialism and it's philosophical counterpart, utilitarianism, became ideas whose time had come. Our revolution must begin with convincing a majority of people that total emancipation, individual liberty, is an idea whose time has come. This fight is with the pen and not the sword, on college campuses and here on the web. The battle agaisnt statism may be completely impossible to win, or, miracle of miracles, in this information age, the concept of individual sovereignty could go viral. 

I think you'll agree, though, that we're not going to excite anyone with half-baked measures like "Let's decriminalize marihuana and regulate and tax the hell out of it," or "Let's elect some Republicans to office so they can try to reduce taxes by one percent a year" kind of thing.
  
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