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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Moral Anarchy (Read 3235 times)
zophos
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #20 - Mar 2nd, 2013 at 4:26pm
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Crystallas wrote on Feb 28th, 2013 at 11:43pm:
... a free structure that does a better job ...

That's exactly our disagreement - I don't think anarchy does a better job.  And nobody can prove that it does - it's all just moral and political theories.  I'll accept anarchism as a realistic and desirable political goal once I'm more convinced that society can handle it.
  

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Tom Palven
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #21 - Mar 3rd, 2013 at 7:08am
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zophos wrote on Mar 2nd, 2013 at 4:26pm:
That's exactly our disagreement - I don't think anarchy does a better job.  And nobody can prove that it does - it's all just moral and political theories.  I'll accept anarchism as a realistic and desirable political goal once I'm more convinced that society can handle it.



Consider that promoting the anarchic Non-Aggression Principle or the very similar Golden Rule might be a better path to world peace and prosperity than trying to fine-tune coercive statism.
  
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zophos
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #22 - Mar 3rd, 2013 at 4:00pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Mar 3rd, 2013 at 7:08am:
Consider that promoting the anarchic Non-Aggression Principle or the very similar Golden Rule might be a better path to world peace and prosperity than trying to fine-tune coercive statism.

Define "promote."
  

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Bourgeois
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #23 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 3:47am
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zophos wrote on Mar 2nd, 2013 at 4:26pm:
And nobody can prove that it does.

Nobody can prove that super-high level calculus works in the real world...it's all just deduction and mathematical theories. (I need empirical evidence).
  

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Josh
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #24 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 4:40am
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zophos wrote on Feb 28th, 2013 at 10:49pm:
as an American living in 2013, I can't call myself an anarchist.  I cannot stomach the idea of no state security to protect me from potentially 310 million criminals, or the billions more beyond our borders.

You're dead on. If we don't have socialized security, all hell will break loose. But I think you're not focusing on the right area. We currently don't have socialized food, automobiles, etc.! We need to get back to Stalinism ASAP!
  

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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #25 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 5:17am
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zophos wrote on Mar 3rd, 2013 at 4:00pm:
Define "promote."


From dictionary.com.  I was thinking of #1

pro·mote/prəˈmoʊt/ [pruh-moht] 
verb (used with object), pro·mot·ed, pro·mot·ing. 
1. to help or encourage to exist or flourish; further: to promote world peace. 
2. to advance in rank, dignity, position, etc. ( opposed to demote ).
3. Education . to put ahead to the next higher stage or grade of a course or series of classes.
4. to aid in organizing (business undertakings).
5. to encourage the sales, acceptance, etc., of (a product), especially through advertising or other publicity.
6. Informal.  to obtain (something) by cunning or trickery; wangle.
  
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Libertarian For Our Future
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #26 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 10:12am
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Josh wrote on Mar 4th, 2013 at 4:40am:
You're dead on. If we don't have socialized security, all hell will break loose. But I think you're not focusing on the right area. We currently don't have socialized food, automobiles, etc.! We need to get back to Stalinism ASAP!

I agree with zophos, to a degree. I don't believe EVERYTHING needs to be socialized, I don't believe government should tuck me in at night either. I believe we need to gradually get to a point where society is a bit more self conscious and a bit more respectful.

When I say that, I don't mean I need an armed guard following me around wherever I go. I do believe we need to, collectively, break down government regulations to where people can receive the help they need. More than that, I believe the education system needs to be corrected. While all of these things people can claim to be instantaneous fixed, I believe there needs to be a gradual process to fix these deficiencies.

Until that time comes, I can't buy into total & complete anarchism. I'm not looking for Stalinism or Hitlerism either. There are definitely deficiencies in our system/society that we need to gradually fix before we can get to that point.
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #27 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 3:18pm
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Libertarian For Our Future wrote on Mar 4th, 2013 at 10:12am:
I agree with zophos, to a degree. I don't believe EVERYTHING needs to be socialized, I don't believe government should tuck me in at night either. I believe we need to gradually get to a point where society is a bit more self conscious and a bit more respectful.

When I say that, I don't mean I need an armed guard following me around wherever I go. I do believe we need to, collectively, break down government regulations to where people can receive the help they need. More than that, I believe the education system needs to be corrected. While all of these things people can claim to be instantaneous fixed, I believe there needs to be a gradual process to fix these deficiencies.

Until that time comes, I can't buy into total & complete anarchism. I'm not looking for Stalinism or Hitlerism either. There are definitely deficiencies in our system/society that we need to gradually fix before we can get to that point.


How much coercion of yourself do you think is ethical?  How much will you consent to?
  
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #28 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 4:50pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Mar 4th, 2013 at 3:18pm:
How much coercion of yourself do you think is ethical?  How much will you consent to?

Coercion, in of itself, is unethical. I think the system that has been structured, since Lincoln's administration, has created such a messed up society that it will take some time to get individuals in a better frame of mind.

If we take one example and look at welfare, if we end it right away and determine that individuals will determine what's best for each person, I believe folks will be in an upheaval about this and potential damage will ensue. If we give folks gradual steps leading into a better way of living, that's when the role of government can go away. As a lot of the economists I've listened to and I truly agree with, you can't just pull the rug on these type of folks. Where you and I believe this system is coercing us into funding it, I don't believe by yanking it out will be any better.

Do I believe anarchy can work? Sure, even though such a system has never been fully implemented, to my limited knowledge, but only if the society that believes in this system has the mind set of it. Most of the society we have today has been beaten down so badly by government that it believes it can only be helped by the government. As such, if you take that structure away from them, who knows what they will then ensue. With that in mind, I believe if you setup frameworks that allow these individuals to prosper, without government help, you can begin to see in an overall improvement of society. Whereas most lobbyists and politicians are telling citizens to fight for certain policies, fight to not cut spending, fight to get a budget, fight to keep spending into their corrupt ways, all of which a lot of the citizens buy into (No pun intended).

I look at this from a teacher's perspective. If someone doesn't know something, you have to show them the means to accomplish what they are looking for. If all they've ever known is the government will help them out wherever they go, they will continue to believe government will continue to help them. If they hear how spending is getting slashed, of course they're going to get mad because it might mean less money in their pockets. If you show/explain to them how it's not coming out of the governments pockets and it's coming out of everyday tax payers pockets, then give them to ability to provide means for themselves not on government support, that's when we will begin to prosper as a nation. Until we can gradually break the governmental mold over the citizens, no form of reality will be formed for any of us. We will continue to be stuck in the post-Lincoln era. Of which, I'm not looking forward to.

Until that time comes, I will continue to exhibit my 2nd amendment rights. Grin
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Moral Anarchy
Reply #29 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 5:42pm
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I don't resent people taking welfare or food stamps.  If they're giving stuff away it would be foolish not to.  What I resent is someone telling me that I need a permit to build a front porch, and stuff like that.  If you've already read this quote from Proudhon I'm sorry to bore you with it:

"To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right, nor the knowledge, nor the virtue to do so."
  
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