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LibertariCAN
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Education Voucher
Jul 25th, 2013 at 10:17am
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I've observed that, relative to this message board, I'm more of a soft core libertarian than most here. IRL, of course people that I speak to live think MY libertarianism is extreme, but I would love to see their reaction after spending an hour on this forum Grin

Since we have a wide spectrum of intelligent libertarian minds on this forum, I want to know what the varieties of opinion have to say on SOME form of aide from the government for those that have less money than average:

For instance, in a 100% private school system, how do you feel about a voucher system for the poor? (We can get into specifics later, but I'm speaking on general principle right now).
  

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RubyHypatia
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #1 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 11:17am
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I'm all for it.  I want all children to be educated, even if that means taxpayers would pay for poorer students.
  
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Liberalterian
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #2 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 11:44am
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Vouchers seem like a decent idea BUT you have to remember that as soon as the state funds private education (even indirectly) regulations are soon to follow.

So, while it seems like a decent idea be prepared to deal with BS regulations that will dictate to private schools what they can and cannot teach.

A great example is religious schools. If we have a voucher system we would either have to make it exempt the religious schools or we would soon see regulations imposed on what these schools can and cannot teach. For example, they would likely not be allowed to teach Creationism because many people would complain that public money is used on these schools and thus a case could be made about this going against Separation of Church and State.

So the point I make, while I think vouchers are a decent idea as part of a transition (ideally we shouldn't need them) from public education; we must also recognize the adverse effects that are soon to follow. What if the voucher program ultimately leads to private schools having to teach the same Standardized BS that public schools do? What if this leads to the private schools (who accept vouchers) becoming a poorer educational institution than they are now?

Of course, some private schools could deny vouchers entirely and this way be free of regulations. BUT this would mean that those who do accept vouchers would be subject to regulations and could mean that people going to these voucher schools would have much of a similar education that the public schools have now. AKA, education wouldn't improve much for those using the voucher system.
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #3 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 12:01pm
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If we are to assume that education is now 100% private school then we must also assume that those private schools are willing to offer scholarships to lower income families.  In addition to scholarships, privately funded schools would be encouraged to lower their tuition to create competition with other schools in their area which would make education more accessible to lower income families.

I don't agree that money should be taken away from anyone in the form of taxes and just given to another person out of some perceived "need".  Some states fund their public education system with property taxes.  If you have children and do not own property the system is great but if you own property and don't have children then your property is incrementally being stolen.

The responsibility for the education of a child is solely that of the children and not the community at large.
  

Keauxbi
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization..."--Edward Abbey
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Liberalterian
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #4 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 12:58pm
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What do you say to the people who say that this would lead to a lot of illiteracy and as a result make us all less safe?

I guess I would say that they are free to spend their money to help others get an education... but the point remains that it could be a problem if millions of parents don't care to give their children any education. Surely we agree this would lead to all kinds of problems for everyone?
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #5 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 3:14pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Jul 25th, 2013 at 12:58pm:
What do you say to the people who say that this would lead to a lot of illiteracy and as a result make us all less safe?

I guess I would say that they are free to spend their money to help others get an education... but the point remains that it could be a problem if millions of parents don't care to give their children any education. Surely we agree this would lead to all kinds of problems for everyone?


I assume that you are referring to my comments so I'll pose my rebuttal.

Illiteracy has nothing to do with national security or public safety.

It cold be a problem if millions of parents don't give their children an education but it does not mean that once a child becomes old enough they can't obtain the education on their own.  The industrial revolution occurred during a time in America when there wasn't a massive public school system so to assume that we'd be worse off without the public school system is naive and ludicrous. 

I don't agree that this would lead to all kinds of problems for everyone.  A minority of people would have slightly more problems without a free schooling for their children, but I think if we moved away a public school system towards privately funded education it would improve our society greatly.  I also don't think that it takes 13 years to teach the equivalent of an average American K-12 education.  If a child can learn the same amount in 8 years and then become a productive member of society, say going to work and helping their parents afford the educational costs of younger siblings, society as a whole can benefit.  Of course we'd need to reform/repeal child labor laws as well.

As a personal goal, any time someone says "Surely we can agree..." I try to find something to disagree with.
  

Keauxbi
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Liberalterian
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #6 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 8:38pm
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keauxbi wrote on Jul 25th, 2013 at 3:14pm:
I assume that you are referring to my comments so I'll pose my rebuttal.

Illiteracy has nothing to do with national security or public safety.

It cold be a problem if millions of parents don't give their children an education but it does not mean that once a child becomes old enough they can't obtain the education on their own. The industrial revolution occurred during a time in America when there wasn't a massive public school system so to assume that we'd be worse off without the public school system is naive and ludicrous.

I don't agree that this would lead to all kinds of problems for everyone. A minority of people would have slightly more problems without a free schooling for their children, but I think if we moved away a public school system towards privately funded education it would improve our society greatly. I also don't think that it takes 13 years to teach the equivalent of an average American K-12 education. If a child can learn the same amount in 8 years and then become a productive member of society, say going to work and helping their parents afford the educational costs of younger siblings, society as a whole can benefit. Of course we'd need to reform/repeal child labor laws as well.

As a personal goal, any time someone says "Surely we can agree..." I try to find something to disagree with.

Well speaking of the industrial revolution... we saw a lot more illiteracy and crime then than now. Plus a lot of kids died really young in the mines.

That said, I don't think this would happen nowadays since most people would shun anyone who sent their kid to work in mines. But what if millions of people don't get educated early on and never choose to get educated later on either? What if instead they choose a life of crime? Increasing the crime rate would effect every single one of us.
  
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Crystallas
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #7 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 11:36pm
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Demonstrate a system that does not have one powerful entity stealing from the poor to give back to the very same poor(in practice, not on paper since paper concepts always backfire and still steal from the poor to give to the poor before eventually stealing from the poor to give to the rich). Then I might be inclined to budge.

When governments do it, it doesn't work. When private charities do it without government intervention, then we all benefit, the poor and the rich, the unfortunate and the gifted. We all benefit when the altruism is voluntary.
  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #8 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 12:35am
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Let's narrow down the hypothetical a bit.

Suppose that the government acts as an organizer of said voucher system instead of a dictator. Let's say each state government manages to organize 90% of the private schools into a voluntary voucher program (they would do so for a variety of reasons). Each of these schools in the 90% voluntarily chooses to accept government vouchers which grants 40% off the price of tuition.

There is no government funds given to schools to make up the 40%.

Would any of you object to the government being the organizer of voluntary schools?

I find that in this situation, we eliminate government coercion, robbery, and regulations. And on the other hand, those with less money in society have a helping hand in affording school tuition for their children.
  

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keauxbi
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #9 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 12:37am
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Liberalterian wrote on Jul 25th, 2013 at 8:38pm:
Well speaking of the industrial revolution... we saw a lot more illiteracy and crime then than now. Plus a lot of kids died really young in the mines.

That said, I don't think this would happen nowadays since most people would shun anyone who sent their kid to work in mines. But what if millions of people don't get educated early on and never choose to get educated later on either? What if instead they choose a life of crime? Increasing the crime rate would effect every single one of us.


Can you show me statistics that prove that crime was higher in the late 19th century?

I think you are assuming that our current public school system actually educates the children of America.  Just as an example in Detroit:
Spending per student as of 2010 was $15,570 compared with a national average of $10,591.
The average Teacher pay was $47.28/hour which works out to over $71,000 per year.  The national average is between $40 and $44,000 per year.
What do they get out of this Detroit public school system?
40% of Adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate.
Only 7% of 8th graders are proficient in reading, 4% in math.

You say "what if millions of people don't get educated" and I say millions of people currently aren't being educated.

An education is not a byproduct of going to school and it is not something that you receive, it has to be earned.
  

Keauxbi
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization..."--Edward Abbey
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