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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Education Voucher (Read 12236 times)
Crystallas
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #10 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 3:12am
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LibertariCAN wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 12:35am:
Let's narrow down the hypothetical a bit.

Suppose that the government acts as an organizer of said voucher system instead of a dictator. Let's say each state government manages to organize 90% of the private schools into a voluntary voucher program (they would do so for a variety of reasons). Each of these schools in the 90% voluntarily chooses to accept government vouchers which grants 40% off the price of tuition.

There is no government funds given to schools to make up the 40%.

Would any of you object to the government being the organizer of voluntary schools?

I find that in this situation, we eliminate government coercion, robbery, and regulations. And on the other hand, those with less money in society have a helping hand in affording school tuition for their children.



Then all you do is raise the cost of education(without increasing its quality or return on investment). As a percentage, 40% scales, so you also raise the amount the government spends. You have now replaced on inflationary model with another. Same result, except the transition phase will have different highs and lows(as far as adaptation) and you basically write off a larger part of a generation due to the artificially created permutation.

What seems like 40% taken from the system, and given to the people, is really not doing so. Despite recognizing that a public forced(well, pretty damn close) educational system is broken from an economic standpoint, the broken system still operates at a high level of efficiency to poorly spend other people's money on other people's children. So school districts are still very active at keeping the teacher to student ratios high enough to justify costs(but too high to justify the poor quality of education, which is a separate problem from the economic one). Subsidizing private education, while more ethical to the consumer, creates a new, false demand. You wind up with schools that do not have the students at the correct levels to fill classrooms, and not enough funds to continue to maintain programs. This is not due to competition, but the subsidy itself. And for these schools to make money, they need to evolve in ways that are more beneficial to receive the subsidy, than to educate the student(another separate issue from the economic.) All is left, are public and private schools who have gaps in their programs, a portion of the public that loses faith in private education(prior pro-private education), and this mess will discourage more honest individuals from wanting to pursue a career in education, which they naturally get replaced by teachers who know how to work the system better than they know how to inspire future generations.

I also want to point out, if the cost per student is approximately 1000 lovebucks(or whatever currency). The parent that can't afford 600 of that, is the parent that is discriminated against. The goal is to extend better quality of education to more families, but it does the opposite. Partial vouchers are not market based solutions. The student is punished due to the parents economic status(for whatever reason, lazy/stupid/debt/luck.)


This system wouldn't come close to changing trends on "government coercion, robbery, and regulations". As this system would only fork the power struggle at some point.


Walk backwards a bit from your educational ideal. How would any of this get implemented and enforced? The number of educators to student ratio is still going to be relative to the demands of the market(both those who want to be/remain educators, and the stream of students). So that will remain a constant. Now what about the voucher system itself? How does one enact the system? In addition to one set of standards, this also introduces another set(learning how to use the system.) That adds more cost to education just to enforce the system, and due to human error(which also exists in the innovations that we create, such as computers because they are built and programmed by humans, aka:systematic erratum), the system will be taken advantage of by the well informed. The well informed become a privileged class of their own, and now the government will attempt to repair the system(assuming they government is limited to the role of the organizer, as you mention in your hypothetical). The reparations become more complex, and further create a gap in who is able to comprehend the voucher program to suit their needs best. The unfair assumption would be, that all needs are the same, so the system is the same for all, however, one-size fits all solutions of any proportion will fail to recognize all of the exceptions and circumstances(pretense of knowledge).

A government that acts merely as an organizer, would also require the people who are within this government, to enforce and treat this government accordingly. Something we are far from today, as people treat the government as a god of sorts, with the final say and ruling powers granted to them. Therefore I could have just said, in your hypothetical, you're just debating a fantasy concept(honest, I am not trying to be a jerk, I swear I'm not, even though I acknowledge that my post may read that way.) Cheers, hope that cleared some things up.


  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #11 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 9:27am
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Crystallas wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 3:12am:
Then all you do is raise the cost of education(without increasing its quality or return on investment). As a percentage, 40% scales, so you also raise the amount the government spends. You have now replaced on inflationary model with another. Same result, except the transition phase will have different highs and lows(as far as adaptation) and you basically write off a larger part of a generation due to the artificially created permutation.

What seems like 40% taken from the system, and given to the people, is really not doing so. Despite recognizing that a public forced(well, pretty damn close) educational system is broken from an economic standpoint, the broken system still operates at a high level of efficiency to poorly spend other people's money on other people's children. So school districts are still very active at keeping the teacher to student ratios high enough to justify costs(but too high to justify the poor quality of education, which is a separate problem from the economic one). Subsidizing private education, while more ethical to the consumer, creates a new, false demand. You wind up with schools that do not have the students at the correct levels to fill classrooms, and not enough funds to continue to maintain programs. This is not due to competition, but the subsidy itself. And for these schools to make money, they need to evolve in ways that are more beneficial to receive the subsidy, than to educate the student(another separate issue from the economic.) All is left, are public and private schools who have gaps in their programs, a portion of the public that loses faith in private education(prior pro-private education), and this mess will discourage more honest individuals from wanting to pursue a career in education, which they naturally get replaced by teachers who know how to work the system better than they know how to inspire future generations.

I also want to point out, if the cost per student is approximately 1000 lovebucks(or whatever currency). The parent that can't afford 600 of that, is the parent that is discriminated against. The goal is to extend better quality of education to more families, but it does the opposite. Partial vouchers are not market based solutions. The student is punished due to the parents economic status(for whatever reason, lazy/stupid/debt/luck.)


This system wouldn't come close to changing trends on "government coercion, robbery, and regulations". As this system would only fork the power struggle at some point.


Walk backwards a bit from your educational ideal. How would any of this get implemented and enforced? The number of educators to student ratio is still going to be relative to the demands of the market(both those who want to be/remain educators, and the stream of students). So that will remain a constant. Now what about the voucher system itself? How does one enact the system? In addition to one set of standards, this also introduces another set(learning how to use the system.) That adds more cost to education just to enforce the system, and due to human error(which also exists in the innovations that we create, such as computers because they are built and programmed by humans, aka:systematic erratum), the system will be taken advantage of by the well informed. The well informed become a privileged class of their own, and now the government will attempt to repair the system(assuming they government is limited to the role of the organizer, as you mention in your hypothetical). The reparations become more complex, and further create a gap in who is able to comprehend the voucher program to suit their needs best. The unfair assumption would be, that all needs are the same, so the system is the same for all, however, one-size fits all solutions of any proportion will fail to recognize all of the exceptions and circumstances(pretense of knowledge).

A government that acts merely as an organizer, would also require the people who are within this government, to enforce and treat this government accordingly. Something we are far from today, as people treat the government as a god of sorts, with the final say and ruling powers granted to them. Therefore I could have just said, in your hypothetical, you're just debating a fantasy concept(honest, I am not trying to be a jerk, I swear I'm not, even though I acknowledge that my post may read that way.) Cheers, hope that cleared some things up.




I don't think you were being a jerk; thanks for your response.

It seems that when it comes to the voucher ideal, economically speaking, it is almost a no win situation. Whether the government is partially involved or completely involved, still creates problems. Whether the voucher is for 100% off education, or 40% off education, there are problems.

Myself, I've always struggled with the voucher system as an ideal. Something I would like to see, but also something that I know would create a good chunk of problems economically and politically.

Like most people economically and politically inclined, I treat these theories (like the voucher system) to a great amount of attention and critical thinking in hopes of coming to some sort of solution or sound way to implement it. However, it seems as though the voucher system is extremely hard to justify for a variety of reasons.
  

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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #12 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 9:51am
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Republicans and proponents of vouchers make it sound very simple.  Give poorer families money to take their kids out of under performing schools so that they can take their kids to private schools.  The reality, when you do thought experiments like these, is far from simple.

A.) You are taking some funding away from public schools.  A school can under perform in a variety of ways and some schools through mismanagement of funding or lack there of need every dime they can get to be able to operate.  Obviously most schools just have crap teachers, crap administrators and don't really try very hard and should have their funding cut.  But just having a blanket system to cut funding won't improve the system.

B.) To be run well, most voucher programs would require an increase in public education spending.  With this type of welfare program coming online you'll need new offices, new bureaucrats in those offices and equipment to determine which students at which schools get vouchers and which don't.  Also, there's the issue of funding the vouchers themselves.  Do they come straight out of the current education budget or are they separate.

C.)With this and other welfare program there is always a threshold that makes things worse for some people caught just above the cut off.  Let's say vouchers the cut off for a family of four is $30,000 per year total income.  Obviously a family that makes $31,000 won't get the voucher and will have to keep their kids in the bad schools unless they earn less or find a way to hide $1000 worth of income.  If you offer vouchers to every kid at the school, there will be some families that are wealthy enough to afford private school on their own that will now be earning extra money from the government.  There's also the problem of a school being slightly better than the cutoff.  Some parents will decry foul play when their school was just a little too good for their children to receive vouchers which will make politicians consider broadening the program to include more schools.

With the hypothetical voucher system that was proposed many of these points wouldn't be an issue but are reasons that I no longer support a "voucher" program.

As far as government organizing a reduction in tuition for poorer students goes, why would we really need government organization of something that the schools could do on their own?  Government organizing the 40% vouchers doesn't make the schools' bills decrease any.  It doesn't make the teachers salary less expensive.  Government just brokers the deal making government look good.
  

Keauxbi
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #13 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 10:14am
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Yes, there would have to be standards for these private schools to live up to, or else anyone can claim to be a school and shortchange the students.  Religion would be a problem.  I wouldn't want my tax money going to teach children that Creation is true or that Allah hates Western freedoms.  Stossel has shown examples of charter schools succeeding at educating poor children.
  
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #14 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 2:39pm
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I was thinking about making a new topic but I guess this is relevant enough for this thread?

I got this question here from a liberal. How would you go about responding?


"A working single parent who is at the poverty line and has three kids, who depends on subsidies to their school lunch programs, school supplies and who lives far enough way and has a work schedule inflexible enough to require them to depend on the school bus:

When you end all of public education, and her only choice is to pay a privatized corporation to educate the children, where exactly does this money come from?"



Also, as others have pointed out in regards to vouchers: This is essentially what we do with College Education. We pay students with Federal (and often also State) grants to go to college. The result? The cost of college is through the roof due to the artificial demand created by the government intervention. The exact same thing would happen in a voucher system... so if we oppose this sorta government intervention at the college level why support it at lower levels of education?
  
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Crystallas
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #15 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 2:50pm
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RubyHypatia wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 10:14am:
Stossel has shown examples of charter schools succeeding at educating poor children.


Private schools =/= subsidized schools. Once you're subsidized, and depending on the size of subsidization, you are not as private as you once were.
« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2013 at 5:22pm by Crystallas »  
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Crystallas
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #16 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 3:05pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 2:39pm:
I was thinking about making a new topic but I guess this is relevant enough for this thread?

I got this question here from a liberal. How would you go about responding?


"A working single parent who is at the poverty line and has three kids, who depends on subsidies to their school lunch programs, school supplies and who lives far enough way and has a work schedule inflexible enough to require them to depend on the school bus:

When you end all of public education, and her only choice is to pay a privatized corporation to educate the children, where exactly does this money come from?"



Also, as others have pointed out in regards to vouchers: This is essentially what we do with College Education. We pay students with Federal (and often also State) grants to go to college. The result? The cost of college is through the roof due to the artificial demand created by the government intervention. The exact same thing would happen in a voucher system... so if we oppose this sorta government intervention at the college level why support it at lower levels of education?


First, let's take the PC out. The parent that can't afford to educate their children are stupid and/or they are paying for mistakes made(so maybe they wised up, but were stupid before).

If you want more children running around suffering from their parents mistakes, draining the economy, and continuing this cycle of regressive human evolution, then by all means, hide those facts. It sounds pretty harsh, but the fact of the matter is our system and stigma of what education is, has done a great deal of damage to the lives of many. Not acting on the perpetuation, only hurts the poor even more. What we could be doing instead, is using our time wisely to demonstrate more options to both the parents and the children. Like homeschooling, unschooling, alternative schools, and all of the amazing developments that go ignored because they do not fit the governments public school agenda. Heck, third world countries inspired many means of alternate education that are giving those students a far better education than we are witnessing today in the US. A $150 computer for the purpose of education that can educate MANY children BETTER than our education system today. That is pathetic. We need to stop living in a 13th century mentality of such a pedagogy bias, and welcome the expansion and competition of many ways to educate.
  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #17 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 3:54pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 2:39pm:
Also, as others have pointed out in regards to vouchers: This is essentially what we do with College Education. We pay students with Federal (and often also State) grants to go to college. The result? The cost of college is through the roof due to the artificial demand created by the government intervention. The exact same thing would happen in a voucher system... so if we oppose this sorta government intervention at the college level why support it at lower levels of education?


Generally speaking, I would say the circumstances surrounding education at college (or other post-secondary education) are completely different than the circumstances surrounding a child's basic education.

I'm not saying for or against voucher at this point (I still debate with myself about the issue) but I would grant that the issues about schooling a child can receive (like K-12) are different than the issues of post secondary education. I completely disagree with subsidization for post-secondary education.
  

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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #18 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 9:20pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 2:39pm:
"A working single parent who is at the poverty line and has three kids, who depends on subsidies to their school lunch programs, school supplies and who lives far enough way and has a work schedule inflexible enough to require them to depend on the school bus:

When you end all of public education, and her only choice is to pay a privatized corporation to educate the children, where exactly does this money come from?"


Private schools aren't necessarily run by corporations.  As Crystallas pointed out, private schools wouldn't be the only option in a world absent of public schools.  But let's get away from that for a moment.

This is what I'd say to a liberal posing the question:
"First and foremost let's prevent a woman like that from voting.  She's obviously made some horrible decisions in her life and we don't need any more of that on election day. What I'd like to know is how this woman ended up being a government subsidized breeder.  Was she promiscuous to the point that she has 3 kids from 3 different men?  If so, why should the rest of society pay for (literally) her sexual habits which have now impacted the lives of three children?  Why has this woman birthed three children when she has no means to support them on her own?  Why can't she rely on family members for assistance?  Where are the children's father?  What has this woman done to try to improve her skill set to get her children a better life?"

Most often, liberals that pose a question like that aren't doing so because they have a rational justification for wanting to create inter-generational government dependence.  The argument is emotional, not rational or logical.  Usually the shock of being so crass as to honestly assert the woman has made mistakes in her life renders them apoplectic.  Point out the fallacy of their hypothetical as being an extreme exception to the norm, inform them about proposed scholarships that private schools would offer or charitable organizations that would crop up to assist the town hussy in rearing her bastard children and then move on.
  

Keauxbi
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #19 - Jul 27th, 2013 at 11:30am
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keauxbi wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 9:20pm:
Private schools aren't necessarily run by corporations. As Crystallas pointed out, private schools wouldn't be the only option in a world absent of public schools. But let's get away from that for a moment.

This is what I'd say to a liberal posing the question:
"First and foremost let's prevent a woman like that from voting. She's obviously made some horrible decisions in her life and we don't need any more of that on election day. What I'd like to know is how this woman ended up being a government subsidized breeder. Was she promiscuous to the point that she has 3 kids from 3 different men? If so, why should the rest of society pay for (literally) her sexual habits which have now impacted the lives of three children? Why has this woman birthed three children when she has no means to support them on her own? Why can't she rely on family members for assistance? Where are the children's father? What has this woman done to try to improve her skill set to get her children a better life?"

Most often, liberals that pose a question like that aren't doing so because they have a rational justification for wanting to create inter-generational government dependence. The argument is emotional, not rational or logical. Usually the shock of being so crass as to honestly assert the woman has made mistakes in her life renders them apoplectic. Point out the fallacy of their hypothetical as being an extreme exception to the norm, inform them about proposed scholarships that private schools would offer or charitable organizations that would crop up to assist the town hussy in rearing her bastard children and then move on.

What if the father of the kids died and they were a functioning family unit before then? The hypothetical does not necessarily state whether she was being promiscuous or not.

In any case, what they would say is that the woman would not ever vote for someone who is going to leave her stuck in her place if she could vote for someone who will give her kids a free education. I know you say take away her right to vote but what legal right is there to do so? And if we did so does this mean that she has to not pay taxes either? Since it would mean she has to pay taxation without representation. I'm sorry but I don't see how you can justify taking away her right to vote just because she is in a bad situation. This seems ridiculous and as JFK said, if you take away the means to a peaceful revolution (voting) then you make a violent revolution inevitable. Meaning that you will push her and others in bad situations to extremism if you take away their fundamental right to vote.
  
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