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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Education Voucher (Read 12801 times)
Proletariat
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #170 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 1:30pm
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LibertariCAN wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:45am:
Most people make that mistake and fail to realize that Wal-Mart and other stores like that would not be the size they are today in a free market. The success of stores like Wal-Mart and Costco (i.e. the success of corporatism) is largely due to the fact they received special subsidies, breaks, or privileges from government at ALL levels.


So predatory pricing and monopolies and the like would disappear in a free market?
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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Proletariat
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #171 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 1:34pm
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I've already discussed this point before, which you did not address. The free market provides the same opportunities for everyone. Simply because some people may have to work a bit harder for some goods and services does not make it an immoral or unjust system.


A grocery clerk living below subsistence would have the same opportunities as everyone else? You actually believe this? Unless, if you mean by "work a bit harder" the clerk could sell a kidney and a lung.

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A free market system will also allow others to do whatever they please to make some money. I mean, you always talk about "real life", and I don't want to get too far onto this path of splitting hairs and flinging "real" situations back and forth but consider someone making home made burgers and turning their house into a slight store front for selling them. This is currently prohibited by government, and this goes back to my point: for every "opportunity" a government gives, it takes away ten.


Who'd be stupid enough to buy from a guy who can't afford a mean inspector since people here generally don't want taxes to pay for meat inspectors?

Quote:
It's also amazing to me that according to leftists, a free market will never provide any bank loans, grants, private subsidies, or charity.  Grin There are always ways to help yourself in a bad economic situation, and there are always ways to help others.


Yes, but charities are underfunded and some are corrupt. Charities are great but they can't replace the welfare state.

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1: Where do entitlements come from? You see the thing is, a lot of people like yourself address entitlements as if government provides them out of thin air. They don't. "Opportunity" needs to come from somewhere. Whether it takes place in the form of a price floor, or an education subsidy, what you are saying is that you believe in certain situation people are entitled to another citizen's extra money, time, or resources. It always comes back to the interaction of individuals, the government provides nothing.


I have nothing again taxes, this argument doesn't really mean anything to me.

Quote:
2: Our immigration controls in Canada suck right now actually. The system is getting ridiculous. My Father came to Canada when he was a very small boy, and based on what he said they had then, and what we have now in terms of immigrant opportunities, the difference is shocking and goes to show that it is a system largely based on the xenophobic notion that there is some sort of fixed pie that the immigrants steal from.


There was less immigrants then so the state could provide them with more?
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #172 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 2:31pm
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 1:34pm:
A grocery clerk living below subsistence would have the same opportunities as everyone else? You actually believe this? Unless, if you mean by "work a bit harder" the clerk could sell a kidney and a lung.


Who'd be stupid enough to buy from a guy who can't afford a mean inspector since people here generally don't want taxes to pay for meat inspectors?


Yes, but charities are underfunded and some are corrupt. Charities are great but they can't replace the welfare state.


I have nothing again taxes, this argument doesn't really mean anything to me.


There was less immigrants then so the state could provide them with more?



Wow. Hyperbole, moving the goal posts, facetiousness, and strawmen arguments all in the same post! If there was a race on this forum for the top score in fallacies, you would most certainly be winning.

I take the time to present thoughtful posts and properly structured arguments of principle in response to your posts. You choose to be flippant and short-handed back. That's your decision, but as for me, I don't need to waste any more time on someone who clearly isn't willing to have an actual discussion about the principles of the matter.

It would do you some service to understand that your "come on, we're talking about real life" quotes, and appeals to 'common sense' don't cut it when it comes to discussing issues with people educated on principles and discussion.
  

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Bertu
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #173 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 7:29pm
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I warned you.  Cool
  
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Coopers
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #174 - Aug 24th, 2013 at 5:54am
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 1:27pm:
Google "walmart human rights abuse".


I asked you to provide evidence. I'm not sure if I've ever witnessed a debate where someone has asked his opponent to find evidence to support his case. The onus of evidence is on you, so don't go telling me to make your argument for you.

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How would the "free market" keep these people out then?


I have covered this in detail, so I won't repeat myself.


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So why aren't they currently paying above the minimum wage? Why are there still sweatshops?


Who is "they"? Walmart? They do pay above minimum wage! See here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/mike-duke-minimum-wage_n_3806200.html

As for sweatshops, they are virtually non-existent in the West. But yes, they do exist in many developing countries.

I would like to ask you this: what would you do about sweatshops? Would you close them down? Have you ever wondered why people take those jobs, and what removing them would do?

You cannot snap your fingers and bring developing nations right into line with the West's working conditions. They are called "developing nations" because they are developing. The West had sweatshops once too, and that is because our industry and labour force had to transition to the high productive value we now enjoy.

Nations with sweatshops are merely making that transition later than us. Soon their sweatshops will not exist, as their workers and capital will become more productive. And if you take sweatshops away from them, they will be left to rummage for garbage like they used to do. I recommend watching this video on the issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO2-XRQ4r-0

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So why is the 8 hour work day disappearing?


It isn't. Americans, for example, are working less than they ever did: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-were-working-less-parents-102800144.html

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I never said minimum wage laws ensure full employment. All I said is that they make sure that both employed + unemployed unskilled labourers don't starve on the streets.


And I never said you said that. But you made the argument that minimum wage laws and welfare help the poor. I demonstrated that they clearly don't. And seeing as you didn't even attempt to refute the fact that the minimum wage creates unemployment then I assume you would rather have generations of people unemployed and on welfare rather than entering the labour force on low wages and gaining skills that would equip them for better paying jobs in the future.

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I've heard this argument before. But, here in Canada, living on welfare is living on subsistence. Most people generally don't want to stay on that for an extended period of time. I only know one person who has been on welfare (for 6 months) and they didn't exactly make it sound like it was a fun time.


Anecdotal evidence will not cut it. The statistics speak for themselves: welfare creates unemployment, poverty and dependency. I am still waiting for you to provide any credible evidence to the contrary.
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:47am by Coopers »  
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #175 - Aug 25th, 2013 at 2:30pm
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LibertariCAN wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 2:31pm:
Wow. Hyperbole, moving the goal posts, facetiousness, and strawmen arguments all in the same post! If there was a race on this forum for the top score in fallacies, you would most certainly be winning.

I take the time to present thoughtful posts and properly structured arguments of principle in response to your posts. You choose to be flippant and short-handed back. That's your decision, but as for me, I don't need to waste any more time on someone who clearly isn't willing to have an actual discussion about the principles of the matter.

It would do you some service to understand that your "come on, we're talking about real life" quotes, and appeals to 'common sense' don't cut it when it comes to discussing issues with people educated on principles and discussion.


This was a clever way to avoid addressing the issue of the grocery clerk not being able to afford things just like everyone else "with just a bit of hard work", and the issue of small scale meat producers not being able to afford meat inspectors.
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #176 - Aug 25th, 2013 at 2:59pm
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Damn, you got told Wink
  
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Proletariat
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #177 - Aug 25th, 2013 at 3:03pm
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I asked you to provide evidence. I'm not sure if I've ever witnessed a debate where someone has asked his opponent to find evidence to support his case. The onus of evidence is on you, so don't go telling me to make your argument for you.


http://www.laborrights.org/stop-child-forced-labor/news/report-finds-child-labor...

Took me 5 seconds to find the first link.

Quote:
I have covered this in detail, so I won't repeat myself.


I don't know what post you are referring to, but you certainly can't believe that a transition to a complete free market would keep Arab immigrants and the like out?

Quote:
Who is "they"? Walmart? They do pay above minimum wage! See here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/mike-duke-minimum-wage_n_3806200.html


I meant why does your average Tim Hortons or Mcdonals not pay above minimum wage? If there was no minimum wage laws, they would halve their wages tomorrow morning and there would still be a greater number of job applicants than job openings.

Quote:
As for sweatshops, they are virtually non-existent in the West. But yes, they do exist in many developing countries.

I would like to ask you this: what would you do about sweatshops? Would you close them down? Have you ever wondered why people take those jobs, and what removing them would do?

You cannot snap your fingers and bring developing nations right into line with the West's working conditions. They are called "developing nations" because they are developing. The West had sweatshops once too, and that is because our industry and labour force had to transition to the high productive value we now enjoy.

Nations with sweatshops are merely making that transition later than us. Soon their sweatshops will not exist, as their workers and capital will become more productive. And if you take sweatshops away from them, they will be left to rummage for garbage like they used to do. I recommend watching this video on the issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO2-XRQ4r-0


Why can't these Western operated 3rd world sweatshops have sort of laws attached to them that make them semi - accountable for their horrid labour/environmental abuses? And what makes you think that the second that these sweatshops start improving people's lives in Indonesia they won't pull out and go to some other even less developed country as to avoid paying the Indonesians progressive higher wages?

And saying that they would "rummage for garbage" is just indulging in Western narcissism. They would have their own Industrial Revolution and their own entrepreneurs on their own time. Or their own communist revolution. Either way, they would develop without Western exploitation just like the West developed without any foreign exploitation. 

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It isn't. Americans, for example, are working less than they ever did: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-were-working-less-parents-102800144.html


Well sure, if you include the ridiculous amount of people working part time, temporary and contract jobs today (something that wasn't as common "in our parent's time"), then sure.

The 40 hour work week is disappearing for many people across many industries, a good example would be how lawyers' billing hours have been steadily increasing over the last X amount of decades. Furthermore, many people aren't getting paid for overtime, many people are deciding to have 2 part time jobs as opposed to one full one due to fear of lay-offs and the like, many people live contract to contract, etc...

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And I never said you said that. But you made the argument that minimum wage laws and welfare help the poor. I demonstrated that they clearly don't. And seeing as you didn't even attempt to refute the fact that the minimum wage creates unemployment then I assume you would rather have generations of people unemployed and on welfare rather than entering the labour force on low wages and gaining skills that would equip them for better paying jobs in the future.


At any point in time, some percentage of the population will be unemployed, there is never full employment. These people "cannot enter the labour force on low wages" if they don't ,for the temporary time being, have a steady income to pay rent, health insurance (because thank god the US does not have communist free health care in the US) and the like with. Welfare is that income. Welfare gives them the breathing room needed to find work, start a business, etc.... or to stay on subsistence living if they make that choice.

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Anecdotal evidence will not cut it. The statistics speak for themselves: welfare creates unemployment, poverty and dependency. I am still waiting for you to provide any credible evidence to the contrary.


Many on welfare are mentally/physically ill, or poor single parents, or people who do not have the ability or the life circumstances that allow them to get a job that pays above minimum wage, or refugees, etc... Sure, these people are unemployed and dependent on welfare but they NEED the welfare, and if they stay on welfare because their minimum wage job for e.g. can't feed their two kids, then be it. And sure, many, many people do fraudulently steal from welfare instead of working but it would be a crime against humanity to take welfare from those who actually need it. Would you close down every business because some abuse people?
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #178 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 9:33am
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 2:30pm:
This was a clever way to avoid addressing the issue of the grocery clerk not being able to afford things just like everyone else "with just a bit of hard work", and the issue of small scale meat producers not being able to afford meat inspectors.




That's laughable. Our entire conversation in this thread has featured you avoiding the arguments I present, and hurling back demagogic crap at a strawman; So yes, this deep into the conversation, I am no longer going to waste my time "debating" with you.

If you actually look at your post, and then look at my response to it and feel that it's just a tactic to avoid answering questions, then I can't help you.
  

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Re: Education Voucher
Reply #179 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 10:37am
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 3:03pm:


Five seconds is also about how long you take considering your arguments. If you had actually examined that story, you would have realised that the apparent human rights abuses occurred at Narong Seafood. They are merely a supplier to Walmart. Better luck next time.


Quote:
I don't know what post you are referring to, but you certainly can't believe that a transition to a complete free market would keep Arab immigrants and the like out?


It was more than one post, but you are unaware because you simply do not take the time to read what I or anyone else on this forum says. You seem to be quite the skimmer. I can only suggest reading back over what I said and also reading the Hoppe essay (somehow I think my requests will be in vain).

Quote:
I meant why does your average Tim Hortons or Mcdonals not pay above minimum wage? If there was no minimum wage laws, they would halve their wages tomorrow morning and there would still be a greater number of job applicants than job openings.


If minimum wage laws were abolished then we would see an enormous amount of jobs available for unskilled workers, and paid training for them to move into better paying work. Again, I explained this issue in detail, but you choose to ignore me or simply do not take the time to carefully consider my points.


Quote:
Why can't these Western operated 3rd world sweatshops have sort of laws attached to them that make them semi - accountable for their horrid labour/environmental abuses? And what makes you think that the second that these sweatshops start improving people's lives in Indonesia they won't pull out and go to some other even less developed country as to avoid paying the Indonesians progressive higher wages?


Really? This is the best you can do? When it comes to basic standards, of course I support laws that prevent people from falling into servitude and physical harm. But as I said before, the conditions and pay of sweatshops are far better than what they had. If they weren't then they would not take the jobs.

And if they pack up and leave to a less developed country later on...great! Then people in those countries will have the same opportunities to improve their lot. The more globalisation the better.

Quote:
And saying that they would "rummage for garbage" is just indulging in Western narcissism. They would have their own Industrial Revolution and their own entrepreneurs on their own time. Or their own communist revolution. Either way, they would develop without Western exploitation just like the West developed without any foreign exploitation. 


And if they had their own industrial revolution, I suppose it would happen without sweatshops? They would go straight from rummaging for garbage to cushy office jobs? Again, I am repeating myself, but I pointed out that the West too had sweatshops with harsh working conditions when they were developing. Developing countries are developing at a far greater rate than the West did, and it is precisely because of the "exploitation" we provide them. If they could somehow make the transition in a better way then I would love to hear it from you.

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Well sure, if you include the ridiculous amount of people working part time, temporary and contract jobs today (something that wasn't as common "in our parent's time"), then sure.

The 40 hour work week is disappearing for many people across many industries, a good example would be how lawyers' billing hours have been steadily increasing over the last X amount of decades. Furthermore, many people aren't getting paid for overtime, many people are deciding to have 2 part time jobs as opposed to one full one due to fear of lay-offs and the like, many people live contract to contract, etc...



At any point in time, some percentage of the population will be unemployed, there is never full employment. These people "cannot enter the labour force on low wages" if they don't ,for the temporary time being, have a steady income to pay rent, health insurance (because thank god the US does not have communist free health care in the US) and the like with. Welfare is that income. Welfare gives them the breathing room needed to find work, start a business, etc.... or to stay on subsistence living if they make that choice.


Have any data to back this up? I provided it for you, and whatever anecdotes you provide I am not prepared to take seriously.

« Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2013 at 2:52pm by Coopers »  
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