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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) True Democracy (Read 6689 times)
Proletariat
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #30 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:17am
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LibertariCAN wrote on Aug 4th, 2013 at 6:01pm:
Practically nothing a grocery store clerk can do? That's an absolute notion that leaves no alternatives in mind. In a free society, there are multiple things a grocery store clerk can do to make a difference about his conditions of employment, his wages, and of course WHERE he works.


Example?

Quote:
Laws that enforce things like minimum wages, and certain working conditions often do more harm than they do good.

And we as fellow citizens do not "owe" anyone anything. I believe, for instance, that if I ran a grocery store, it would be my moral duty to provide good working conditions and also be open and honest with my employees. That's a set of morals, but these things should not be enforced by laws.

I would also not want MY idea of how a grocery store should be run implemented into law either. Essentially, that is what regulatory laws are; bureaucrats deciding what THEY think a workplace should be like. It has nothing to do with reality or what voluntary entities want to do/have.


You say that it would be wrong as "proletariat" to support a moral system that lets our fellow workers choose whatever they want to do and be their own self-serving entities? I believe the complete opposite:

What is completely wrong is the notion that we have the "duty" or "right" to force, what we believe to be, good working conditions, minimum wages, and other regulations, on our fellow workers and citizens. That is wrong.


Yes, in the name of the working class, we should all support people's "right" to "choose" to work in sweatshops almost literally straight out of Dante's inferno. The Canada in which I currently live in which prohibits this is a bureaucratic, opressive nightmare with it's forcing of e.g. bathroom breaks on people.
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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Crystallas
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #31 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:55am
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:14am:
I adresses this when I told Crystallas my example of country A, country B and country C and globalization (which he ignored). I too agree that capitalism is the best solution, but not full blown, survival of the fittest capitalism.


I didn't ignore it. I pointed out the flaws of your argument. I can see that I will be repeating myself a lot while you make up hypotheticals and push myths. Oh well, this type of behavior is not unusual, however, I never understood why a confidant person would require to be willfully misinformed and push myths, if they have nothing to be afraid of. I could just point out a number of different mental disorders that carry symptoms of; sense of entitlement, high level of envy, concepts of idealism, beliefs that high level institutions are the best to associate one's self, high dramatization, mythomania. But there is little point *shrug*, as intervening through conversation with someone with such disorders does not improve the situation.

I'll let the rest of you debate this kid. Instead of feeling sorry for my issues, I'm actually going to do something, which means I can use my time more wisely than convincing myself that I can't change the outcomes in my own life, and those around me that I care for. Crazy, I know, but I think I'll give it a shot.
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #32 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 8:18am
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LibertariCAN wrote on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 1:29am:
..... nor did I see a concrete base of reasoning for the statement of ownership=power.


Obviously this relates to economic power (i.e. money) and the cases supporting the fact that money=power are endless in both enterprise and politics.
  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #33 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 11:15am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 8:18am:
Obviously this relates to economic power (i.e. money) and the cases supporting the fact that money=power are endless in both enterprise and politics.


I understood that. I was just waiting for someone to define it a bit more properly.  Wink It's not my job to feed people definitions and arguments.
  

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LibertariCAN
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #34 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 11:24am
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:17am:
Example?


Yes, in the name of the working class, we should all support people's "right" to "choose" to work in sweatshops almost literally straight out of Dante's inferno. The Canada in which I currently live in which prohibits this is a bureaucratic, opressive nightmare with it's forcing of e.g. bathroom breaks on people.



Example? In a free society (just to name a few) a grocery clerk could:

-Negotiate with his boss
-Organize collective bargaining with his fellow workers vs. the employer
-Depending on the example company's structure, go above the boss of the immediate grocery store and talk to corporate
-Quit and seek other employment


The second part of your response is completely begging the question and in no way invites intelligent discussion. However, I will say that a response like that (which happens all to often when discussion get slightly in depth) completely evades the the question of moral principle.

I live in Canada too (hence my name) and I have a different view on what regulations do.
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #35 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 12:24pm
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LibertariCAN wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 11:24am:
Example? In a free society (just to name a few) a grocery clerk could:

-Negotiate with his boss
-Organize collective bargaining with his fellow workers vs. the employer
-Depending on the example company's structure, go above the boss of the immediate grocery store and talk to corporate
-Quit and seek other employment


The second part of your response is completely begging the question and in no way invites intelligent discussion. However, I will say that a response like that (which happens all to often when discussion get slightly in depth) completely evades the the question of moral principle.

I live in Canada too (hence my name) and I have a different view on what regulations do.

But what if the situation is like now and we have a lot of unemployment? What if the workers organizing leads to them all being fired and replaced? This could easily happen. I know long term such a strategy wouldn't work since it is costly to replace workers but doing it once or twice might be enough to scare future employees to not organize together. I know I would rather just do my job than join a union any day of the week, even if I thought my working conditions would improve. Mostly because I don't like unions but also because I admit that I am a suck up to my bosses. Grin I usually try to make them really like me and hope for a promotion rather than try to upset them.
  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #36 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 2:18pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 12:24pm:
But what if the situation is like now and we have a lot of unemployment? What if the workers organizing leads to them all being fired and replaced? This could easily happen. I know long term such a strategy wouldn't work since it is costly to replace workers but doing it once or twice might be enough to scare future employees to not organize together. I know I would rather just do my job than join a union any day of the week, even if I thought my working conditions would improve. Mostly because I don't like unions but also because I admit that I am a suck up to my bosses. Grin I usually try to make them really like me and hope for a promotion rather than try to upset them.


The current regulatory situations ,in both the United States and Canada, don't allow for workers to effectively make statements.

And if they get fired or replaced, that is the market reality.
  

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Crystallas
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #37 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 2:36pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 12:24pm:
But what if the situation is like now and we have a lot of unemployment?


Can I add to his answer?


-Take your knowledge, start your own business. And let's not assume that an individual who worked as a clerk, only knows how to be a clerk. Smiley Most successful start-ups come from regular people making a career change into a field where they had no prior professional experience. Instead, they stopped lying to themselves about their real passions, and actually chased what they *like* doing.

  
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Proletariat
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #38 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 5:14pm
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Crystallas wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:55am:
I didn't ignore it. I pointed out the flaws of your argument. I can see that I will be repeating myself a lot while you make up hypotheticals and push myths. Oh well, this type of behavior is not unusual, however, I never understood why a confidant person would require to be willfully misinformed and push myths, if they have nothing to be afraid of. I could just point out a number of different mental disorders that carry symptoms of; sense of entitlement, high level of envy, concepts of idealism, beliefs that high level institutions are the best to associate one's self, high dramatization, mythomania. But there is little point *shrug*, as intervening through conversation with someone with such disorders does not improve the situation.


I am a statist and a person more concerned with actual real world scenarios (e.g. people in sweatshops) that abstract moralisms such as "initiating force is wrong" (even though private property ownership derives from force but whatever). I like debating about you know real life and not arbitary distinctions between "positive" and "negative" rights or whatever. If that is a symptom of mental illness, then I am as ill as they get lol.

Crystallas wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:55am:
I'll let the rest of you debate this kid. Instead of feeling sorry for my issues, I'm actually going to do something, which means I can use my time more wisely than convincing myself that I can't change the outcomes in my own life, and those around me that I care for. Crazy, I know, but I think I'll give it a shot.


I don't know what your issues are but I will tell you this, the state is harming you and a free market/society would allow you to solve your issues. Right?
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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Proletariat
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #39 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 5:19pm
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Honestly, this has become a circular and overly theoretical argument between me and more people than I can keep up with. Let's get back to what libertarianism would look like in real life.

http://progressiveslogans.blogspot.ca/2011/08/50-reasons-libertarians-are-crazy....

"the following are the positions of some prominent and not so prominent libertarians going back to the 1970's...  and yes virginia, they are batshit crazy"
legalize blackmail

legalize heroin, meth, & glue sniffing

sell off the national parks

legalize dog & thingy fighting

privatize the air you breath & the ground you walk on

abolish all licensing: ie if you want to be a doctor or lawyer run over to kinko's and have some business cards made up --- laissez faire suckers

allow for privatized segregation & discrimination (no jews, n*ggers, catholics, sp*cs, women, people over 50, gays, children allowed)

legalize insider trading

abolish animal cruelty laws

patent the dna of all life forms including humans

legalize child labor

declare smoking a celebration of capitalism

abolish the americans with disabilities act

legalize child selling

privatize and sell off the arctic & antarctic

abolish unions

replace state & federal prison guards with walmart like security

legalize voluntary slavery

abolish animal cruelty laws

believe FDR & EISENHOWER were communists

declare selfishness the ultimate virtue

re-introduce debtors prisons

allow individuals to own nuclear weapons or whatever armaments they want

abolish the anti-trust laws

sell off the rivers, lakes, & oceans of the world

make the poor, sick, & disabled depend on charity instead of the resources of the state

clone slaves out of your own dna

replace the federal reserve with a pc and a chair

let the insurance companies take over the judicial system

privatize outer space

denounce the idea of a "social contract"

establish exchanges for the buying & selling of human body parts (by paying living people & the families of the dead)

incentives for voluntary euthanasia of the old & poor --- (let granny sign her life away so the insurance company won't have to pay as much for medical or long term care)

abolish mandatory emergency room care

legalize extortion

abolish/limit medical malpractice suits

consider the non-payment of bills as cause for arrest and the use of lethal force

abolish public schools

establish private armies in place of the US armed forces

re-introduce 18th century style workhouses

abolish usury laws

claim that societies and even families don't exist --- only individuals

end compulsary education

allow the disemination of snuff movies & kiddie porn

let companies sue & imprison whistle blowers

legalize prostitution & decriminalize pimping

abolish social security & medicare

take the remaining native american lands and sell them off for pennies on the dollar

send mercenaries to seize nationalized businesses

* scream bloody murder when governments collect data yet defend corporations that   collect, hold, and sell more data than any government has ever collected

What a free society this would be. No force, only voluntary association. I feel like communists should support libertarianism because it would let to extreme class polarization and maybe that international, workers revolution they've been promising us would finally take off.
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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