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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) True Democracy (Read 7945 times)
Proletariat
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #40 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 5:57pm
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Hits the nail on the head, please watch and let me know what you think.
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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Crystallas
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #41 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 10:14pm
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I called it in the first post. Gimme cookie.
  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #42 - Aug 6th, 2013 at 11:07am
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Crystallas wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 10:14pm:
I called it in the first post. Gimme cookie.


  

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LibertariCAN
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #43 - Aug 6th, 2013 at 11:11am
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 5:19pm:
Honestly, this has become a circular and overly theoretical argument between me and more people than I can keep up with. Let's get back to what libertarianism would look like in real life.

http://progressiveslogans.blogspot.ca/2011/08/50-reasons-libertarians-are-crazy....

"the following are the positions of some prominent and not so prominent libertarians going back to the 1970's... and yes virginia, they are batshit crazy"
legalize blackmail

legalize heroin, meth, & glue sniffing

sell off the national parks

legalize dog & thingy fighting

privatize the air you breath & the ground you walk on

abolish all licensing: ie if you want to be a doctor or lawyer run over to kinko's and have some business cards made up --- laissez faire suckers

allow for privatized segregation & discrimination (no jews, n*ggers, catholics, sp*cs, women, people over 50, gays, children allowed)

legalize insider trading

abolish animal cruelty laws

patent the dna of all life forms including humans

legalize child labor

declare smoking a celebration of capitalism

abolish the americans with disabilities act

legalize child selling

privatize and sell off the arctic & antarctic

abolish unions

replace state & federal prison guards with walmart like security

legalize voluntary slavery

abolish animal cruelty laws

believe FDR & EISENHOWER were communists

declare selfishness the ultimate virtue

re-introduce debtors prisons

allow individuals to own nuclear weapons or whatever armaments they want

abolish the anti-trust laws

sell off the rivers, lakes, & oceans of the world

make the poor, sick, & disabled depend on charity instead of the resources of the state

clone slaves out of your own dna

replace the federal reserve with a pc and a chair

let the insurance companies take over the judicial system

privatize outer space

denounce the idea of a "social contract"

establish exchanges for the buying & selling of human body parts (by paying living people & the families of the dead)

incentives for voluntary euthanasia of the old & poor --- (let granny sign her life away so the insurance company won't have to pay as much for medical or long term care)

abolish mandatory emergency room care

legalize extortion

abolish/limit medical malpractice suits

consider the non-payment of bills as cause for arrest and the use of lethal force

abolish public schools

establish private armies in place of the US armed forces

re-introduce 18th century style workhouses

abolish usury laws

claim that societies and even families don't exist --- only individuals

end compulsary education

allow the disemination of snuff movies & kiddie porn

let companies sue & imprison whistle blowers

legalize prostitution & decriminalize pimping

abolish social security & medicare

take the remaining native american lands and sell them off for pennies on the dollar

send mercenaries to seize nationalized businesses

* scream bloody murder when governments collect data yet defend corporations that collect, hold, and sell more data than any government has ever collected

What a free society this would be. No force, only voluntary association. I feel like communists should support libertarianism because it would let to extreme class polarization and maybe that international, workers revolution they've been promising us would finally take off.


You're posting garbage.

Your arguments are not initiating discussion, they are shutting down your own intellectual honesty. You might want to watch it. I posted something on the previous page you have yet to respond to.

Instead of trying to understand libertarians or the (I say again) WIDE SPECTRUM of libertarianism, you're posting facetious content from other web sties and Bill Maher.

Everyone on this forum is more than willing to have a proper discussion with you, but it takes two to tango. None of us want to engage in stupidity.
  

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Coopers
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #44 - Aug 6th, 2013 at 11:13am
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 5:57pm:


Hits the nail on the head, please watch and let me know what you think.


We already discussed this here: http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1365614151
  
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Crystallas
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #45 - Aug 6th, 2013 at 5:50pm
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Kevin_Fischer
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #46 - May 11th, 2018 at 7:51pm
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 12:01am:
A truly democratic society, i.e. a society with equally distributed political power, would be one in which the methods of production are owned neither by the government (Communism) and neither by a small capitalist minority (Capitalism). The reality of human society is that ownership = power. The minority who owns things (land, methods of production, resources, etc�) ultimately decide how these things are used and through the usage of these things determine the lives of the majority who own practically nothing and work for wages.  That is the political and economic reality of human society. The owner class owns the media (and resultantly shapes culture), owns education (shapes our worldview), owns the workplaces (shapes our daily lives and salaries), owns resources (owns our society itself). The workplace needs to be democratised and only then can true democracy flourish.

Libertarianism calls for the workers to make individual contracts with their bosses and to determine and shape their own lives as individuals. But it ignores the tremendous leverage that those who own things have over those who work for wages. It ignores the fact that we, as individuals, have next to zero say with how the world�s resources are used and how wealth is distributed. It ignores the fact that libertarianism will never leverage the power between a CEO (who shapes the lives of thousands of people) and a grocery store clerk (who has practically no bargaining power and isn�t even truly in control of his own life).

A democratic and prosperous society would be one in which entrepreneurism is allowed to flourish and is financially awarded but not one that allows entrepreneurs to exploit the common man. Entrepreneurs could become CEOs, managers, etc�. and make significant sums of money doing so. But they could not make decisions about their workplaces without the democratically established consent of their workers. That way factories would be owned by factories and law firms for example would be administrated by owners and law partners but these owners could only suggest decisions to the workers who themselves would ultimately have power to decide whether or not to implement these suggestions. That way the common man would be in control of his own work, his own life and his own society. Certain rules could be established to prevent the majority of workers from screwing over their fellow peers but generally speaking, workplace democracy would flourish. The government would be reduced to a minimum, to set some basic labour laws, give social security, administer an army, etc�.  Those who own things and those who work for wages would be put on practically close to equal footing and a true democracy, for the first time in history, would be established.

Thoughts?


The only way true democracy can be practice is when everyone are equal and that won't happen because anyone that own the mean of production will inevitably be more powerful then those who rely  on them. Even communism fall victim to this fallacy since it the people invested power into the states, which by extension empowered a individuals that eventually exploit his authority.

Decentalise techology can allow people to be self-sufficient and therefore more independent of entities that might abuse their power. That why we need to advocate more research in this field to make it a reality
  

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Jeff
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #47 - May 12th, 2018 at 7:47am
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Kevin_Fischer wrote on May 11th, 2018 at 7:51pm:
The only way true democracy can be practice is when everyone are equal and that won't happen because anyone that own the mean of production will inevitably be more powerful then those who rely  on them.
So once you get your 3D printer, you will become powerful and be able to exploit the masses?

Of course you'll still have to rely on someone to provide raw materials for your printer to use.

If you are worried about centralized power, as you should be, work towards a limited government and a rule of law protecting (among other things) free competition. That way people who own a "means of production" will have to compete with other people who own "means of production" and also with people who raise capital and create new "means of production" and people who invent new things so that sometimes your "means of production" becomes obsolete, or at least your product does.
  
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Kevin_Fischer
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #48 - May 13th, 2018 at 4:25am
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  Huh
  

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Kevin_Fischer
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Re: True Democracy
Reply #49 - May 13th, 2018 at 4:49am
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Jeff wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 7:47am:
So once you get your 3D printer, you will become powerful and be able to exploit the masses?

Of course you'll still have to rely on someone to provide raw materials for your printer to use.

If you are worried about centralized power, as you should be, work towards a limited government and a rule of law protecting (among other things) free competition. That way people who own a "means of production" will have to compete with other people who own "means of production" and also with people who raise capital and create new "means of production" and people who invent new things so that sometimes your "means of production" becomes obsolete, or at least your product does.


3d printer: considering it just to serve your own needs.nope, but I bet you can be content that it can metal print, create computing ships and even creates house. You just fork up million of dollars for a industrial size what tech gaint have today or simply start advocating for a scaled down version.

One size doesn't fit all

You talk about free competition and people creating new mean of production however  that only work if the target industry has a entry point that could allow that. If it to complex and expensive then free market fails. there is a reason after all the even though the U.S created the internet their still only two companies you or your provider could really pick from. Let not even go into detail of how Intel starved all out other CPU makers with their specialize motherboard and AMD was only saved by a contract. They  both created completely different motherboards only capable of their chip thus eliminating any chance for real competition. Meanwhile the gaint just buy out new ideas and engineers to eliminate any real innovation. I never heard of a motherboard startup happening. Instead maybe countless failed open source ones.guess people aren't interested in free market, or free computers.

Considering laws are man made construct, when automation start driving the majority into proverty, "limited government" will be a farse and we'll start imposing  other man made construct like creating a basic income like we're are actually considering today. Meanwhile the owners are just going to look at the facts: you need me, but I don't need you. So you better make me president otherwise I'll starve everyone

Even if I'm somehow wrong.   We're still at the issue that some people are more  politically privileged then others
  

We can't take nothing with us, but what we leave behind is our Legacy
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