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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Liberals hate success (Read 2389 times)
LibertariCAN
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Re: Liberals hate success
Reply #10 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 8:46pm
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Proletariat wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 6:08pm:
This is a belief and not a fact. The reality of the situation is that the US has the least social mobility of pretty much any first world country. But that clearly doesn't sound as good as "this is the land of the free, we are number one, etc...".


This is simply not true. As a matter of fact, countries that you continually praise on this forum for their welfare statism such as France, and The United Kingdom are relatively in the same boat as the United States.

Here:
Quote:
"Several studies have been made comparing social mobility between developed countries. One such study (“Do Poor Children Become Poor Adults?") found that of nine developed countries, the United States and United Kingdom had the lowest intergenerational vertical social mobility with about half of the advantages of having a parent with a high income passed on to the next generation. The four countries with the lowest "intergenerational income elasticity", i.e. the highest social mobility, were Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Canada with less than 20% of advantages of having a high income parent passed on to their children.


Graph: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Intergenerational_mobility_gr...

Once again, Proletariat, your B.S. has been completely debunked.

The more protectionist a country is economically (this can happen because of immigration control, tariffs, high taxes, welfare statism) the less social mobility there is. The U.S., the United Kingdom, and France are all good examples of lower social mobility for a variety of different reasons.
  

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Proletariat
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Re: Liberals hate success
Reply #11 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 2:56pm
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LibertariCAN wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 8:46pm:
This is simply not true. As a matter of fact, countries that you continually praise on this forum for their welfare statism such as France, and The United Kingdom are relatively in the same boat as the United States.

Here:

Graph: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Intergenerational_mobility_gr...

Once again, Proletariat, your B.S. has been completely debunked.

The more protectionist a country is economically (this can happen because of immigration control, tariffs, high taxes, welfare statism) the less social mobility there is. The U.S., the United Kingdom, and France are all good examples of lower social mobility for a variety of different reasons.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/17/social-immobility-climbin_n_501788.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/class-mobility_b_1676931.ht...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-run...

http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2013/jun/26/tim-ryan/rep-tim-ryan-says...

My personal theory is that when you provide people with things like socialized education and health care you put them on (relatively) equal footing. And then genuine competition ensues, meaning genuine social mobility ensues. Competition across differently privileged classes is not competition at all.

  Side note, I can't even imagine how many Albert Einsteins or Nikola Teslas had their talents go to waste because they lived in times like the Industrial Revolution when they struggled to make ends meet. People just generally don't have the time or inclination to invent and innovate when they are too stressed about paying for their health insurance.

  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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keauxbi
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Re: Liberals hate success
Reply #12 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 11:05pm
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Proletariat wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 2:56pm:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/17/social-immobility-climbin_n_501788.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/class-mobility_b_1676931.ht...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-run...

http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2013/jun/26/tim-ryan/rep-tim-ryan-says...

My personal theory is that when you provide people with things like socialized education and health care you put them on (relatively) equal footing. And then genuine competition ensues, meaning genuine social mobility ensues. Competition across differently privileged classes is not competition at all.

  Side note, I can't even imagine how many Albert Einsteins or Nikola Teslas had their talents go to waste because they lived in times like the Industrial Revolution when they struggled to make ends meet. People just generally don't have the time or inclination to invent and innovate when they are too stressed about paying for their health insurance.



Yes, let's site studies and statistics that show how crony capitalism of the 90's and 2000's don't improve social mobility of Americans.  Let's just stay away from statistics from an era in US history when government stayed out of the market and let the course of economics run itself.

As for your personal theory Roll Eyes, socialized education (one size fits all) brings down the best and brightest to the level of the average.  Socializing healthcare take money from poor healthy people and gives it to sick rich people.  So sure, let's put everyone on the same relatively equal footing so we can fail as a group rather than a few failing individually.

Also, I don't think you know much about Nikola Tesla.
Grew up during the industrial revolution, the son of a orthodox priest, immigrated to the US, worked for Edison who outright stole his work. Despite having several patents he dies impoverished and in debt.
  

Keauxbi
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Liberalterian
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Re: Liberals hate success
Reply #13 - Sep 2nd, 2013 at 11:11pm
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keauxbi wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 11:05pm:
Also, I don't think you know much about Nikola Tesla.
Grew up during the industrial revolution, the son of a orthodox priest, immigrated to the US, worked for Edison who outright stole his work. Despite having several patents he dies impoverished and in debt.

SEE??? He died impoverished! Don't you think such great minds should receive billions in government support and grants?!  Grin
  
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Proletariat
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Re: Liberals hate success
Reply #14 - Sep 4th, 2013 at 2:15am
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keauxbi wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 11:05pm:
Yes, let's site studies and statistics that show how crony capitalism of the 90's and 2000's don't improve social mobility of Americans. 


LibertiCAN stated that the US and UK/France have the same levels of social mobility, which I proved is factually inaccurate. European "crony capitalism" is just better.

Quote:
Let's just stay away from statistics from an era in US history when government stayed out of the market and let the course of economics run itself.


The Industrial Revolution?

Quote:
As for your personal theory Roll Eyes, socialized education (one size fits all) brings down the best and brightest to the level of the average. 


It doesn't, the best and brightest go on to become professors, doctors, scientists, etc... They go on to hold jobs considered to be above averagely respected and enjoy above average salaries/working conditions.

Quote:
Socializing healthcare take money from poor healthy people and gives it to sick rich people. 


But it does (or should) take far more from the rich to give to the sick poor than vice versa. And besides another "wonderful" thing about capitalism is that natural disasters, crime and diseases disproportionately affect the poor and they therefore receive disproportionately high levels of treatment.

Quote:
So sure, let's put everyone on the same relatively equal footing so we can fail as a group rather than a few failing individually.


The way I see it is as long as we can all get fully subsidized education and healthcare, stay out of wars and imperialism, minimize crime and poverty, we are not exactly failing as a society. Give people (relatively) equal opportunities and the naturally able will rise to the top, the average will stay average and the incapable or lazy will at least receive subsistence wages.

Quote:
Also, I don't think you know much about Nikola Tesla.
Grew up during the industrial revolution, the son of a orthodox priest, immigrated to the US, worked for Edison who outright stole his work. Despite having several patents he dies impoverished and in debt.


I don't know much about Tesla. I just mean that it's a shame how many Teslas and Einsteins of this world (i.e. the rare genius breed among us) lived and died in factories.
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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