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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Capitalism and the poor (Read 8075 times)
Proletariat
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #60 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 5:37pm
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Crystallas wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 3:07pm:
LOL, Proletariat has beyond lost it. Running in circles without even moving. If you guys want to take a stab, please feel free. As much as we like to help people, delusional people need time and experience more than anything.


To be honest, I don't know why me and you are even debating comrade. We are both, evidently, leftists and beyond liberals. I, as my conservative friends say, don't believe in personal freedoms and responsibility. And it seems like you are a liberal too, at least with the responsibility part. When other people are in a tough situation, it's their own fault (or they are stupid), when it's your mom, it's someone's else's fault, the government, the market, the liberals, someone but not her, lol. If she lost her job due to outsourcing, would you come start bashing the corporate fatcats and become a socialist? It's like people say, liberals want to help people with someone else's money, Crystallas wants other people to take personal responsibility, but not him/his family. Ahhh, we'd get along me and you.
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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Proletariat
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #61 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 5:38pm
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keauxbi wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 3:59pm:
It's like nailing jello to a wall and yes, he is only 18. Give it time.

"If you're not Liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're 35, you have no brain." -Winston Churchill.


"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx

I  can copy and paste too.
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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keauxbi
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #62 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 6:18pm
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Proletariat wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 5:38pm:
"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx

I can copy and paste too.


But can you come up with a quote that is relevant to the conversation?
  

Keauxbi
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization..."--Edward Abbey
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Liberalterian
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #63 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 6:20pm
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Proletariat wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 5:31pm:
I don't know if I agree with this. Companies like Nike who mistreat workers and the environment are making record profits, I hardly see the mechanism of public outcry forcing them to clean up their act here. I could be wrong, but it really doesn't seem like most large companies are doing much to address the issue of global warming. Also we have environmental regulations sure, but they go out the window once the companies move their practices overseas.


Yeah, I see what you are saying here and you may be right about China. Allow me to to go off on a tangent for a second here about central planning though. The West, like the rest of the world, was undeveloped and its' population illiterate and rural. The West industrialized, terrible working conditions ensued, workers fought for their rights for decades on end and then finally the 40 hour work week and good working conditions were born. Africa for example has terrible working conditions at the moment, but that will, hopefully, change as their workforce develops into a modern, professional one.

There were places in the world where a largely peasant, urban population was ruled by a monarchy, the monarchy was overthrown and almost immediately the population got 40 hour work weeks, paid vacations, etc... The USSR was ruled by a tzar up until 1917 and they had the 40 hour work week way before world war 2. Yugoslavia was ruled by a king up until they were occupied in world war two. Post war, their industry was operated by the workers themselves and they had the best working conditions in Eastern Europe (and arguably some of the best in the world). I know that atrocities were committed against peasants in the USSR under Stalin but there were no such things done in communist Yugoslavia and, I think, many other places like Bulgaria and the like.

Do I believe in a centrally planned economy? No. Do I think that communism is sustainable? Probably not. But the sun still would still come out tomorrow morning even and the grass would still grow even without a free market. Centrally planned economies, just like free market ones, have their ups and downs.

It happens gradually. Those companies are starting to change things and ALL companies (virtually) are at least paying lip service to green techniques. They might not yet fully abide by that lip service but ultimately they will have to, it appears that this sort of thing is what consumers want.

As for this point, as the United States (or any) nation industrialized you saw terrible conditions, at first. But with this industrialization and technological improvements caused by it/with it you also see a growing middle class. The middle class is historically (at least in modern times) for decent working conditions, against child labor, decent pay, sustainable environmental practices, etc. So with more reporting done in the workplace (another semi-related example is with PETA and other groups filming factory farms, and a growing call for using more human/organic policies is developing as a result). The biggest issue is that consumers don't know everything about their products. Having the internet and other great methods to communicate is helping that a lot, I admit it will not make things perfect but it is pushing companies in the right way. China has a bigger middle class than the entire population of the United States. Compare that to China in the 1980s, essentially no middle class.

As for Yugoslavia, they were not really centrally planned. As you said, the workers ran things. This was maybe central planning at a small scale (factory to factory) as opposed to a single centralized planning organization running all factories, farms, ports, etc. They still utilized some market mechanisms such as prices, they had a very decentralized structure as opposed to a centralized economy. They were still a command economy (as in, not free market) but they were not 100% centralized as the complete failures of the USSR, (Maoist) China, North Korea, etc. as a result they did comparatively better.

As for a 40 hour work week, that's semi-related. What I am more talking about is the fact that free markets tend to improve conditions for everyone. Having better conditions for laborers is good but the main great thing is the rise of a middle class. This only occurs in free market societies, never in those who are Communist or Hardline Socialist. Maybe it can happen in Social Democracies but I would debate that...
  
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Crystallas
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #64 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 6:58pm
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My point was proven again.  Grin
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #65 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 7:25pm
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Crystallas wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 6:58pm:
My point was proven again. Grin

But... but... he claimed you were a statist just like him Undecided
  

Keauxbi
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keauxbi
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #66 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 7:38pm
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Proletariat wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 5:38pm:
"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx

I can copy and paste too.


Oh and to rebut your Marx quote, ever individual owns personal property.  They own themselves, their lives, their body, their future and the right to do with it as they wish.  With an authoritarian government, even that is taken away by force.  I prefer private property to the alternative.
  

Keauxbi
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Proletariat
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #67 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 8:23pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 6:20pm:
It happens gradually. Those companies are starting to change things and ALL companies (virtually) are at least paying lip service to green techniques. They might not yet fully abide by that lip service but ultimately they will have to, it appears that this sort of thing is what consumers want.


Me and you might be patient but I don't know how patient the ozone layer is. Will these companies clean up their act before our environment is wrecked beyond repair?

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As for this point, as the United States (or any) nation industrialized you saw terrible conditions, at first. But with this industrialization and technological improvements caused by it/with it you also see a growing middle class. The middle class is historically (at least in modern times) for decent working conditions, against child labor, decent pay, sustainable environmental practices, etc. So with more reporting done in the workplace (another semi-related example is with PETA and other groups filming factory farms, and a growing call for using more human/organic policies is developing as a result). The biggest issue is that consumers don't know everything about their products. Having the internet and other great methods to communicate is helping that a lot, I admit it will not make things perfect but it is pushing companies in the right way. China has a bigger middle class than the entire population of the United States. Compare that to China in the 1980s, essentially no middle class.


I have two problems with this. One, everybody talks about the middle class (hell everyone thinks they are part of the middle class) but nobody really defines what it is. What is the middle class in your opinion?

And two, not every nation saw terrible conditions at first as you say. Communist regimes implemented the 40 hour work week, paid vacations, etc... pretty much immediately. They did not have a period akin to the Industrial Revolution.

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As for Yugoslavia, they were not really centrally planned. As you said, the workers ran things. This was maybe central planning at a small scale (factory to factory) as opposed to a single centralized planning organization running all factories, farms, ports, etc. They still utilized some market mechanisms such as prices, they had a very decentralized structure as opposed to a centralized economy. They were still a command economy (as in, not free market) but they were not 100% centralized as the complete failures of the USSR, (Maoist) China, North Korea, etc. as a result they did comparatively better.


It seems to me, although I do not know enough to judge, that Yugoslavia was a very serious argument for the validity of worker managed economies as an alternative to what we have now. It's also important to note that labour conditions in Yugoslavia were excellent and that living standards were very good, as far as my understanding goes.

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As for a 40 hour work week, that's semi-related.


I bring up the 40 hour work week because it is one of the more obvious indicators of good working conditions. The modern West started out with insane work weeks and they were gradually reduced to the 40 hour work (that's in danger today). Some countries had 40 hour work weeks during their entire industrialized histories.

Side note, I think Denmark has a 29 hour work week and a more productive economy then ours. Crazy, huh?

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What I am more talking about is the fact that free markets tend to improve conditions for everyone. Having better conditions for laborers is good but the main great thing is the rise of a middle class. This only occurs in free market societies, never in those who are Communist or Hardline Socialist. Maybe it can happen in Social Democracies but I would debate that...


I am not disputing that capitalism improves working conditions for people, I am just saying that it was a slow and painful process to get to things like unions, paid vacations, 40 hour work weeks, etc... In communist countries, all those things were achieved through a single violent revolution. Not that I am advocating communism or revolution, I believe in neither.

Although I must ask again, what do you consider to be the middle class? Isn't a lawyer/doctor a white collar labourer?
  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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Proletariat
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #68 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 8:32pm
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keauxbi wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 7:38pm:
Oh and to rebut your Marx quote, ever individual owns personal property. They own themselves, their lives, their body, their future and the right to do with it as they wish.


Two points, your "life, body and future" is not fully under your control. Doesn't pollution harms your body and don't  working conditions affect your life? And isn't your future affected by the opportunities (or lack thereof) that society, the labour market, etc... provides? You are owned by other people as much as yourself every second of your existence, my friend, dont kid yourself.

I should also add that during the Industrial Revolution, your employer pretty much owned your body, life and future. And while things are infinitely times better today, Marx's quote is still right because the majority of people live in a rented apartment and work for someone else. And also, we don't really look at people's bodies as a property right, we see it more as human and civil rights. Cutting off your arm and selling it illegal, no?

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With an authoritarian government, even that is taken away by force.I prefer private property to the alternative.


Agreed, I don't believe in an authoritarian government.



  

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population." -Karl Marx
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keauxbi
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Re: Capitalism and the poor
Reply #69 - Sep 5th, 2013 at 10:24pm
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Since you like to cherry pick and don't ever directly confront arguments....

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Me and you might be patient but I don't know how patient the ozone layer is.


Ozone is a naturally occurring molecule that is created by exposing atmospheric oxygen (O2) to UV rays (sunlight).  Many large cities experience ozone not as man made pollutant but as a naturally occurring pollutant based upon the conditions at ground level.  The only hole ever found in the ozone layer is at the antarctic possibly due to low levels of UV rays directly striking the atmosphere.  The "hole" is just a thinner layer in the ozone layer and typically fluctuates in size from year to year.  This is all verifiable.

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What is the middle class in your opinion?

Anyone who makes between $15trillion and $0.01 per year is middle class in my opinion.

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I do not know enough to judge, that Yugoslavia was a very serious argument for the validity of worker managed economies as an alternative to what we have now.

That's funny, you admit not knowing enough to judge and then you do so anyway. 

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The modern West started out with insane work weeks and they were gradually reduced to the 40 hour work (that's in danger today). Some countries had 40 hour work weeks during their entire industrialized histories.

Side note, I think Denmark has a 29 hour work week and a more productive economy then ours. Crazy, huh?


You claim that A.) the 40 hour week is in danger and B.) Denmark is more productive than "us".  I bet it's easy to make statements without backing them up isn't it.

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In communist countries, all those things were achieved through a single violent revolution.

Funny, communism is usually implemented because of a revolution.  The bolshevik revolution created the Soviet Union, Mao Tse-Tung took power in China after a civil war, Fidel Castro and Che Guevara brought a bloody revolution and communism to Cuba...

I dare say you'll be hard pressed to find a communist government that was democratically elected in any major country.

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Doesn't pollution harms your body and don't  working conditions affect your life? And isn't your future affected by the opportunities (or lack thereof) that society, the labour market, etc... provides? You are owned by other people as much as yourself every second of your existence, my friend, dont kid yourself.


Pollution harms my body as much as I choose to let it.  In a free society I am free to move myself away from pollution according to my own will.  Before you go spouting about poor not being able to move, I'll refer you to the "poor" farmers that moved their entire livelihoods, their belongings, their children, everything during the "dust bowl" period in the US of the 1930s.  Those farmers were poorer than Americans living in poverty now and they did it for the good of their family.  If they could do it with less then, it can be done now.

My future is what I make of it.  I would refer you to Diogenes of Sinope who said "Poverty is a virtue which one can teach oneself. "
  

Keauxbi
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization..."--Edward Abbey
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