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Bourgeois
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Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Nov 5th, 2013 at 3:52am
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I figured it was about time to do an exposť on Dennis, AKA, Liberalterian. Recently a lot of his correspondence has been leaked, and I'm not sure why he's still around this forum, as he is NO libertarian. He has betrayed Libertarianism, Capitalist Principles, and America. Let's examine a few things that he has said:

Quote:
"I found it interesting that I became libertarian after I started smoking and after stopping I am turning away from a lot of libertarian ideas. [...] I didn't consider libertarianism until I started smoking. Now I quit for a few months and I am back to my old political beliefs."


Dennis is essentially claiming that libertarianism is irrational now, and that his belief in libertarianism was based on drugs, which is absolutely insane. Perhaps, in this rare case, weed was a medicine for his damaged brain. But now he has found a new group of "friends"! He declares strongly:

Quote:
"Liberals are a lot nicer and welcoming towards me than libertarians. [...] I have been hanging out with liberals more than libertarians though, I'm sure this has some sort of influence. Next thing you know I'll be supporting gun control and a maximum wage."


Clearly he has abandoned libertarianism for his own social gain. He is a traitor to liberty and is opposed to the solidarity of those who stand against government. From his anecdotal experience with a few liberals, he hypothesizes that liberals somehow have compassion and kindness, whereas we do not. This is the epitome of betrayal. The fact that he could EVEN CONSIDER gun control or a "maximum wage" is proof that he is unfit to stand amongst us. Dennis goes on to reach increasingly liberal conclusions:

Quote:
"I would rather have a high literacy rate with state schools than an abysmal literacy rate with a stateless society...Ideally sure people should voluntarily help each other and everyone should be able to educate themselves but I don't see how this is logistically possible without a state."


So Dennis would rather have a "high literacy rate" than a stateless society. It is clear that he not only doesn't understand the way that markets are more efficient, but he also doesn't understand that it's not OK to advocate theft even if "literacy rates" were increased. To Dennis, the means of statism are justified if they fulfill his left wing ends. He is just a common statist rat. Notice how he focuses on educating "everyone" like a damn commie pig, who wants to indoctrinate the masses. I'll conclude with the words of my correspondent who leaked this conversation:

Quote:
"You probably were trying to be rebellious with the libertarianism, and now you probably have a better relationship with your family and you've conceded back to liberalism. [...] You're not incendiary; you're wimpy. You concluded on your own the libertarian philosophy but turned back because of how others view you. Your beliefs represent the social whims of others rather than your own logical conclusions."


Dennis is a statist, socialist piece of filth and should never be trusted in the libertarian movement again.
  

"The government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples."

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Roycerson
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #1 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 9:05am
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You once trusted someone you knew only from this forum?

And Dennis, you have the education thing all kinds of wrong.  The state is the ruin of education.  It's only become steadily worse since the Department of Education was created and will continue to do so.  When government is the problem it's silly to look to them for the solution.
  
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Liberalterian
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #2 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 9:11am
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Roycerson wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 9:05am:
You once trusted someone you knew only from this forum?

And Dennis, you have the education thing all kinds of wrong.† The state is the ruin of education.† It's only become steadily worse since the Department of Education was created and will continue to do so.† When government is the problem it's silly to look to them for the solution.

First, I don't support the Federal Government's Department of Education. I meant education mostly at the local, as well as state, level.

I do support vouchers but to go fully Anarchist we would likely move towards literacy rates similar to how they were in the 1700's.
  
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Firecycle
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #3 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 9:17am
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Bourgeois wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 3:52am:
Dennis is a statist, socialist piece of filth and should never be trusted in the libertarian movement again.


Dear me, no need for that.
  


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Roycerson
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #4 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 9:57am
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Liberalterian wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 9:11am:
First, I don't support the Federal Government's Department of Education. I meant education mostly at the local, as well as state, level.

I do support vouchers but to go fully Anarchist we would likely move towards literacy rates similar to how they were in the 1700's.


Would it interest you to know that Alexander Hamilton, the biggest statist of all the founding fathers, argued against public education in The Federalist Papers because at the time education was readily available for all through private means.† He went on to say that if the government ever funded education than it would never be able to stop because people, with their short memories, would argue that if government doesn't do it no one will.† And here you are, under the impression that if government doesn't do it it won't get done.† Alexander Hamilton said you'd say that.


whoa... literacy rates like the 1700s?!?   I wish.  Have you ever read anything from the 1700s.  Most people today, even college graduates simply can not.
  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #5 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:12am
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Three points:

1) I'm not sure what context those quotes are from, but on face value I would say that making a comparison of political philosophies and beliefs based on the anecdotal nonsense of who was nicer to you is just silly.

2) Economics and political history is clear in showing that government running education drops overall quality of education and teachers. Not to mention the budgeting and union nightmares that come along with it.

3) If buddy wants to stay on a libertarian forum, that's certainly his business. It would just be strongly appreciated if he were honest with his beliefs.
  

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keauxbi
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #6 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:14am
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So what?

If we were all of the same mind on every topic, it would become tedious and boring to have discussions. 

The whole point of having a forum where people are free to join is to discuss differing view points.

  

Keauxbi
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization..."--Edward Abbey
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #7 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:16am
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keauxbi wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:14am:
So what?

If we were all of the same mind on every topic, it would become tedious and boring to have discussions.†

The whole point of having a forum where people are free to join is to discuss differing view points.



forum
ˈfɔːrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora

    1.
    a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Grin
  

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keauxbi
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #8 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:24am
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LibertariCAN wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:16am:
forum
ˈfɔːrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora

† † 1.
† † a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Grin

And there can be no exchange if all views are the same. Tongue
  

Keauxbi
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization..."--Edward Abbey
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Liberalterian
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #9 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:35am
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LibertariCAN wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:12am:
Three points:
1) I'm not sure what context those quotes are from, but on face value I would say that making a comparison of political philosophies and beliefs based on the anecdotal nonsense of who was nicer to you is just silly.

2) Economics and political history is clear in showing that government running education drops overall quality of education and teachers. Not to mention the budgeting and union nightmares that come along with it.

3) If buddy wants to stay on a libertarian forum, that's certainly his business. It would just be strongly appreciated if he were honest with his beliefs.

1) That's not the only reason but it helps. If all libertarians are assholes you begin to wonder if their ideas are any good. If they consistently bash you for no reason and refuse to listen to what you say (just repeating words like Socialist, Alarmist, Radical, etc. instead of directly responding to questions posed) then maybe they haven't thought out their position very well themselves. Liberals tend to listen to what I have to say (don't get me wrong, there are REALLY bad liberals who just mock me as well and refuse to give any consideration to what I say, but they seem to be less from who I have met) and directly respond to questions I pose them. This is in stark contrast to constant ad hominem and refusal to answer any questions.

2) How so? The literacy rate nowadays is considerably higher than before government got involved. Again, I don't support Federal involvement at all, but local and (some) state involvement seems entirely reasonable and like the best solution to the problem. Again, if any jurisdiction wants to offer vouchers this is their prerogative and I would support this.

As for what Roycerson said: Hamilton was an extreme Elitist. Sure he would be opposed to public education since this would mean an educated populace. The fact is, we had a MUCH lower literacy rate in the 1700's than now. Maybe those who were lucky to get an education got a better one, but most people could barely read at an elementary school level, let alone do basic math. I'm sorry but that is NOT what I envision as a prosperous society. If you can tell me some viable alternatives to public involvement (either through public schools or through public funding such as vouchers) then I am all ears and would appreciate this. A difference of opinion does not mean you insult someone (like the OP did), it means you use rational arguments to explain your own position.

I'm not your buddy, friend. Tongue
And I am honest with my beliefs, sorry if I seemed dishonest. I take the term Liberaltarian seriously. I have been a civil libertarian since forever and I do consider myself libertarian (Specifically, progressive libertarian). I just don't view things as purely ideological and recognize that libertarianism does not have to be some Purist ideology, you can have a nice mixture of ideologies and reach better and more pragmatic (and realistic) solutions.

Fact is, the state isn't going anywhere. If people want to change this then you need not point out that the state is a gang of thugs (I agree) but you need to also give viable and feasible alternatives. Just saying: This or this or that could happen is not a viable alternative. Someone who is getting Grants to go to College is not going to support Anarcho-Capitalism (for example) if you tell them that costs would go down for his College if grants were ended. if this person is getting a FULL free ride to college then why the hell would he instead support paying for college? It's simply not logical at all. If you could prove that some private institution or organization would give him grants then maybe you could start to convince this individual. You need to give Direct results to people, not abstract ideas. People don't like uncertainty (in general), we know the state is terrible but the alternative is the unknown, and it is very human to have a fear of the unknown. So if An-Caps are serious then they need to do a much better job of mitigating that fear, just saying the state is terrible but not giving any non-abstract alternatives is not going to win you much support.
  
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