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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dennis, the Liberal Traitor (Read 23314 times)
Roycerson
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #10 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:49am
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Liberalterian wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:35am:
but most people could barely read at an elementary school level


Just a little bit ago I was reading a former TSA agent talking about how 8th grade reading comprehension was the first requirement they dropped because it was the one that people most often fell short of.  Our 8th grade standards are even lower than they used to be making them roughly elementary standards.  Tell me again how it was different in the 1700s.

Regardless of the obvious problems about coercive funding.  Publicly funded education makes nothing better because with or without public schooling parents who care raise educated kids and parents who don't, don't.

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Hamilton was an extreme Elitist. Sure he would be opposed to public education since this would mean an educated populace


And this:  Who do you think runs government education?  I was going to preempt this in my last post but chose not to.  You are entirely correct about elitists wanting public education to train good factory workers who follow orders well while leave the training of future leaders to private schools.  You couldn't be more right about that, so why would you just hand them the means to do it coercively? 

Don't take my word for it.  Ask a repeat NY State Teacher of the Year and author of popular book "Dumbing us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling"  http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html
  
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #11 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:01pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:35am:
1) That's not the only reason but it helps. If all libertarians are assholes you begin to wonder if their ideas are any good. If they consistently bash you for no reason and refuse to listen to what you say (just repeating words like Socialist, Alarmist, Radical, etc. instead of directly responding to questions posed) then maybe they haven't thought out their position very well themselves. Liberals tend to listen to what I have to say (don't get me wrong, there are REALLY bad liberals who just mock me as well and refuse to give any consideration to what I say, but they seem to be less from who I have met) and directly respond to questions I pose them. This is in stark contrast to constant ad hominem and refusal to answer any questions.

This is exactly like you behave. You returning to liberal ideals makes perfect sense. "Tolerant" as long as it doesn't crash with your ideals. Have a fetish for using the terms "nazi" (national _socialist_) and fascist.
  
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Liberalterian
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #12 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:18pm
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Roycerson wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:49am:
Just a little bit ago I was reading a former TSA agent talking about how 8th grade reading comprehension was the first requirement they dropped because it was the one that people most often fell short of.  Our 8th grade standards are even lower than they used to be making them roughly elementary standards.  Tell me again how it was different in the 1700s.

Regardless of the obvious problems about coercive funding.  Publicly funded education makes nothing better because with or without public schooling parents who care raise educated kids and parents who don't, don't.


And this:  Who do you think runs government education?  I was going to preempt this in my last post but chose not to.  You are entirely correct about elitists wanting public education to train good factory workers who follow orders well while leave the training of future leaders to private schools.  You couldn't be more right about that, so why would you just hand them the means to do it coercively? 

Don't take my word for it.  Ask a repeat NY State Teacher of the Year and author of popular book "Dumbing us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling"  http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html

That's true, the biggest problem with that is that only dumbasses (in general) apply for a TSA job. I don't see how 8th grade reading is difficult for people, but if you are going to work either at McDonalds or the TSA and you are over 30 then I guess I could see how it might be difficult for you. Though this is a good argument, I don't see how education has failed this substantially. That said, what is your alternative? Do you think that some people just cannot get an education (maybe they are intrinsically incapable of anything beyond elementary level education?) or what is your view on this?

I like the idea of people just getting private education. Sounds great, but what if someone happened to be born in a very poor neighborhood and has to work to support his family. As a result he never gets access to education because they can't afford this, and second he doesn't have much time to teach himself. Wouldn't it be better if these people have access to education paid for them as an investment? If this person ends up becoming the next Einstein or a great new businessman then this appears to be a very profitable investment, right?
  
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Roycerson
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #13 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:24pm
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That said, what is your alternative? Do you think that some people just cannot get an education (maybe they are intrinsically incapable of anything beyond elementary level education?) or what is your view on this?


You didn't have time to read the link.  You can't go calling yourself a libertarian oriented person with some degree of interest in education w/o reading that very famous speech. 

It doesn't matter what I think about how a child should be educated to anyone but myself, my wife, and my child.  As always I think things would be better (though still imperfect) if people interacted on a voluntary basis.

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Wouldn't it be better if these people have access to education paid for them as an investment?


This is a very rare person and what private donors are for.  Maybe you've lived your life in government employment but out here in the private sector when people consistently prove they are intelligent, motivated, and reliable they are invested in. 

Perhaps you overestimate what it takes to provide primary education when you don't have to re-teach what an adjective is for a week in every grade 3-12.
  
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #14 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:38pm
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Roycerson wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:24pm:
1

You didn't have time to read the link.  You can't go calling yourself a libertarian oriented person with some degree of interest in education w/o reading that very famous speech. 

It doesn't matter what I think about how a child should be educated to anyone but myself, my wife, and my child.  As always I think things would be better (though still imperfect) if people interacted on a voluntary basis.


This is a very rare person and what private donors are for.  Maybe you've lived your life in government employment but out here in the private sector when people consistently prove they are intelligent, motivated, and reliable they are invested in. 

Perhaps you overestimate what it takes to provide primary education when you don't have to re-teach what an adjective is for a week in every grade 3-12.

The person could be gifted at a very young age but lose his talents and intelligence if it is not fostered early on. No businesses will feasibly invest in 3 or 4 year old children, yet this is when most people make cognitive developments most strongly. If a business waits until the person is, let's say, 15 or 16 to start investing in their education then the talents could already have been long squandered and lost.

In any case, I don't agree. I think everyone has the ability to be highly intelligent. The problem is that realistically not everyone will grow up in the perfect environment that will foster their particular intellect or abilities. For example, someone might not be too intelligent on math or science but be an incredible artist or musical talent. Unfortunately they might grow up in a situation where this talent is never fostered at a young age and is squandered. This is where having some level of public (or voucher) education comes in. It recognizes that not every family has the ability to recognize abilities, or help foster those abilities, for their kids. If I am a single parent and working two jobs, how the hell do you expect me to suddenly be able to put a lot of effort in teaching my kid or sending them to get education somewhere if I am barely putting money on the table for rent and food?
  
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #15 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:45pm
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Roycerson wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 11:49am:
Don't take my word for it.  Ask a repeat NY State Teacher of the Year and author of popular book "Dumbing us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling"  http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html

I actually agree with this article.

"It is absurd and anti-life to be part of a system that compels you to listen to a stranger reading poetry when you want to learn to construct buildings, or to sit with a stranger discussing the construction of buildings when you want to read poetry."

This is exactly what I am talking about, we need to foster people's unique talents. Everyone is talented in some way and capable of great success. The trouble is how do we ensure that people grow up in an environment where their personal talents are recognized and fostered?

Personally I like Montessori and other schools which de-emphasize a strict structure. Instead offering some basic rules but giving kids relative leeway and freedom to make their own decisions within a basic rule structure. This way we can actually foster learning as opposed to brainwashing.

That said, there is no reason why public schools cannot change their curriculum accordingly. And if they don't vouchers can make up that failure and kids can go to Montessori and other alternatives schools which actually teach critical thinking skills and foster independent learning.

In any case, if we have no public funding at all for education, not everyone will have access to a Montessori or even a shitty school. If my parents don't have the money for it, then I don't get educated. I could teach myself but if I grow up in an environment that doesn't foster learning or creativity then I am not likely to develop my cognitive abilities beyond a basic level.
  
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #16 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:47pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:38pm:
The person could be gifted at a very young age but lose his talents and intelligence if it is not fostered early on.

I never set foot in a school until college and was hardly tutored as a child. (I wasn't even registered with the state as a homeschooler.) I started college at 15; I have a 3.8 GPA, management experience, and will graduate with a degree in Business next year at the age of 20.

... Bitch
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #17 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:48pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:38pm:
If I am a single parent and working two jobs, how the hell do you expect me to suddenly be able to put a lot of effort in teaching my kid or sending them to get education somewhere if I am barely putting money on the table for rent and food?


You greatly overestimate the effort required to administer primary education.  It needs a thread if you want to talk about it.
  
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #18 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:50pm
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Josh wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:47pm:
I never set foot in a school until college and was hardly tutored as a child. (I wasn't even registered with the state as a homeschooler.) I started college at 15; I have a 3.8 GPA, management experience, and will graduate with a degree in Business next year at the age of 20.

... Bitch

I'm proud of you, bro.

HOWEVER, you are PRIVILAAAAGED.

High IQ, WHITE, MALE.
  
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Roycerson
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Re: Dennis, the Liberal Traitor
Reply #19 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:53pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
This is exactly what I am talking about, we need to foster people's unique talents.


YOU need to mind your own business.  People thinking it's their place to go messing around with other kids education is the problem.  Best thing you can do is nothing at all.

My wife is a schoolteacher and I was raised in the educational psychology culture.  We have lots of ideas about what kind of life we'd like to build with free-market education being a central part of it.  We think we have a very viable solution for your working parent.  .... IF THAT'S OK WITH YOU?
  
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