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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarians and conspiracy theories (Read 7018 times)
Coopers
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #30 - Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:23pm
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Imaginarium wrote on Dec 17th, 2013 at 8:25pm:
The Path of Truth:

1) Ridicule (coo-coo comment; conspiracy theorist; "truther" all KNOWN pejorative terms)
2) Violent Opposition - OR Manipulative Opposition (like Intellectual Dishonesty)
3) Acceptance


The term "Truther" is used by those like yourself who advocate the controlled demolition theory, so I hardly see it as ridicule. In fact, I used the term because you were so offended by being lumped into the "conspiracy theorist" category. Is there any term I can use which won't get sand in your vagina?

Quote:
Ok - let me go through your confusion point by point:
Oh, but first can I ask you something:

Have you ever been in the military ?


No I haven't, but I can already tell you're going to tell me that you have and therefore are some sort of high authority on anything we're discussing. Well, just keep your "facts" coming, and we'll see just how credible you are.

Quote:
A) I don't think it's fact that the planes were going 500mph so let's not insert opinion, right ? 734 ft per second - i think the video could be used to disprove that.


Both sources I provided state that the speed was around 500 miles/hour. This makes me question your definition of "opinion". But let's not stop there; let's look at the speeds of the planes as determined by the NIST report:

Flight 11, north tower: 440 miles/hour

Flight 175, south tower: 540 miles/hour

http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/

Quote:
B) The tower collapse WAS INDEED UNIQUE BECAUSE OF THE PRESENCE OF THERMITE -- as you so conveniently skipped over. It's a published scientific FACT.


Conveniently skipped over? Uh, perhaps you missed the parts where I made it quite clear that considering the volume of material to cover, I would not be able to address all of your points in one go. Your point about thermite fell outside of what I was up to; if you care to read back over things.

While we're on the topic of "skipping over", I would like to list what you have failed to address:

* The unique "tube in a tube" design of the towers

* The structural damage caused (columns removed etc) from the impact of the planes

* The damage done to WTC7

* The out of control and unfought fires

* The fact that this damage and the fires occurred at the base of the building, meaning it had around 40 stories of weight from above to combat

I know it is hard to dispute reality, but if you are going to "debate" me then don't go telling me that I have "skipped over" something when it is in fact you who has done so on several points. In other words, don't be a hypocrite.

Now, seeing as you are so impatient, I will deal with the issue of thermite. One of the best demolitions of this theory I have come across is in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjYoINw5oI

I will summarise the main points:

* Thermite is a very poor product for destroying solid objects (in the video they use 1.5kg to try to destroy a 4kg Xbox, and they failed dismally)

* The samples for the "peer reviewed study" were taken from people who supposedly collected dust from the wreckage, and were obtained from these people several years after the collapse!

* The report found red-grey chips which have the same make-up as thermite. However, thermite can be made from aluminium and iron oxide, which is present in such electrical items as TVs and computers (which were present in every building)

* The dust samples at most showed 0.1% of unreactive thermite

* The report was published in The Open Physical Chemicals Journal, renowned for terrible and unscientific publications 

* Scientists have purposely submitted bogus papers to the journal to test their standards, including a paper with randomly generated words which simply created a report of gibberish. And the "journal" accepted them! So much for peer review!

* Despite the lousy credentials, the chief of the "journal" resigned over the publication of the report. To her, even a report made up of gibberish has more credibility

* Jones and his colleagues have refused to give the samples to others for testing

* A genuine, scientific study of verifiable samples showed no evidence of elemental aluminium particles, which is required for nano-thermite. You can read it here: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64959841/9119ProgressReport022912_rev1_030112...

In conclusion, there is no evidence of thermite being present, and certainly no evidence of thermite being used as an explosive to bring down any of the towers. Before you go declaring something as a "FACT", perhaps you should consider not drawing your conclusions from a bullshit report published in an even more bullshit "journal".

More to come...
« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2013 at 5:54am by Coopers »  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #31 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 9:36am
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Land of Freedom wrote on Nov 18th, 2013 at 2:24pm:
The leftist's conspiracy theories are that somehow companies, businesses, are out to harm their customers. Which makes little common sense but liberals will believe it about every time.


I've never read that one but have read where many liberals do believe that many enterprises are willing to harm people, not necessarily just their customers, and they have a lot of evidence to support that argument. Sometimes both the enterprise and the customer of the enterprise benefit from the harming of others in society.

A perfect example is "Love Canal" that caused great harm to the communities near it and the people living in those communities. Today in WA we're left with financial burden related to the clean-up of heavy metals released by deep-rock mining that is polluting our water supply and that mining took place over 100 years ago.

Not all enterprises seek to harm individuals, and many may actually do so by accident as opposed to intent, but the documentation of people being harmed by enterprise is extensive.

So there could be a "liberal conspiracy" related to "all enterprises" seeking to harm individuals but it is not a conspiracy theory to point out that historically "enterprise" in general has harmed individuals. That can be documented by factual evidence which takes it out of the realm of conspiracy theory.


  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #32 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 9:44am
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Quote:
"It is precisely the necessity of making profits and avoiding losses that gives to the consumers a firm hold over the entrepreneurs and forces them to comply with the wishes of the people."
- Ludwig von Mises


This is of course a fallacy by Ludwig von Mises as the customers of the enterprise are not the "People's" Representatives. The "Customer" may benefit by the enterprise harming other People in society.

For example it is less expensive for an automotive oil service center to dump the used oil down the drain which can pollute the water supply than it is for it to recycle the oil. They could do an "oil change" for less and the "customer" benefits from that but society as a whole is harmed by that practice.

Customers =/= The People

  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #33 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 9:54am
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LibertariCAN wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 5:15pm:
If the rules of private property are properly enforced in the society we're talking about, then there is no need for the EPA.


Of course this is an interesting point as the "Right of Property" is established by the "Labor of the Person" and under that criteria we "cannot own the land, water, air, or natural resources" as they are not a product of the labor of any person.
  
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #34 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:07am
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Josh wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:33pm:
Class action lawsuits


There is a huge myth being propagated as to the effectiveness of class action lawsuits. To be successful the plaintiff requires compelling evidence of a violation occuring and compelling evidence is not often available.

There are so many examples of the lack of compelling evidence that it would be hard to list even a small fraction of them.

Take the NSA spying on Americans as an example though. In 2007 the ACLU filed a lawsuit against the federal government over the "wiretaps" that violate the 4th Amendment but the NSA effectively blocked that lawsuit by refusing to provide any evidence that it has actually spied on the plaintiffs as that was "classified" information. It wasn't until Snowden released information that established that the NSA was spying on everyone, which we actually knew but couldn't "prove" in 2007, that allowed a new lawsuit by the ACLU to proceed. Had it not been for Snowden violating the law with the release of classified material there could have been no lawsuit.

Today we have laws against invidious discrimination in employment but less than 1/1000 cases where actual discrimination occurs every result in a lawsuit as the evidence is virtually impossible to obtain.

Lawsuits are far from being a magical solutions to any problem and the propaganda that they are is based upon ignorance of reality. 

  
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Josh
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #35 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:25am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:07am:
There is a huge myth being propagated as to the effectiveness of class action lawsuits. To be successful the plaintiff requires compelling evidence of a violation occuring and compelling evidence is not often available.

There are so many examples of the lack of compelling evidence that it would be hard to list even a small fraction of them.

Take the NSA spying on Americans as an example though. In 2007 the ACLU filed a lawsuit against the federal government over the "wiretaps" that violate the 4th Amendment but the NSA effectively blocked that lawsuit by refusing to provide any evidence that it has actually spied on the plaintiffs as that was "classified" information. It wasn't until Snowden released information that established that the NSA was spying on everyone, which we actually knew but couldn't "prove" in 2007, that allowed a new lawsuit by the ACLU to proceed. Had it not been for Snowden violating the law with the release of classified material there could have been no lawsuit.

Today we have laws against invidious discrimination in employment but less than 1/1000 cases where actual discrimination occurs every result in a lawsuit as the evidence is virtually impossible to obtain.

Lawsuits are far from being a magical solutions to any problem and the propaganda that they are is based upon ignorance of reality. 


Good point. This is why we need to be kidnapping & caging people based off little to no evidence.
  

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Josh
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #36 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:28am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:07am:
Lawsuits are far from being a magical solutions to any problem and the propaganda that they are is based upon ignorance of reality.

This is quite hilarious coming from you, the person who supports government law in all areas that are problematic as the magical solution.
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #37 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:44am
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Josh wrote on Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:28am:
This is quite hilarious coming from you, the person who supports government law in all areas that are problematic as the magical solution.


It continues to annoy me when others misrepresent my position as I've never insinuated that "government" is the solution to all of our problems. Government does have a role in protection of our Inalienable Rights as well as mitigating the effects of the violations of our Inalienable Rights but it is not a magic bullet.

For example I believe I've repeatedly stated that we have a serious documented problem with explicit anti-black racial prejudice in the United States and racial prejudice is the primary cause of racial discrimination that violates the Right of the Person to Equality as a Person.

This is not something the "government" can do anything about but instead the "People" have a responsibility to address this problem. At best the government can mitigate the effects of the violations of the Rights of Equality caused by racial discrimination but it has no power or ability to end the discrimination created by individual racial prejudice.

What I reject is the belief that the People don't also have responsibilities associated with their Rights as a Person. With those Rights also come the Responsibilities of the Individual as a member of society. In fact the more "Responsible" the People become the less Responsibilities need to be addressed by the Government on our behalf to protect our Inalienable Rights.

The government should only intervene when our Inalienable Rights are being violated and not when they're not being violated and even then there are many cases where it cannot prevent or deter the violation but can only mitigate the effects of that violation of our Inalienable Rights.

For example if no one violated the "Law of Contracts" there would be no requirement for the government to address the violations of contracts. Can the government prevent contracts from being violated? No, but it can mitigate the effects of contracts being violated and that is what it does.    

  
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Josh
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #38 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:49am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:44am:
It continues to annoy me when others misrepresent my position as I've never insinuated that "government" is the solution to all of our problems. Government does have a role in protection of our Inalienable Rights as well as mitigating the effects of the violations of our Inalienable Rights but it is not a magic bullet.

For example I believe I've repeatedly stated that we have a serious documented problem with explicit anti-black racial prejudice in the United States and racial prejudice is the primary cause of racial discrimination that violates the Right of the Person to Equality as a Person.

This is not something the "government" can do anything about but instead the "People" have a responsibility to address this problem. At best the government can mitigate the effects of the violations of the Rights of Equality caused by racial discrimination but it has no power or ability to end the discrimination created by individual racial prejudice.

What I reject is the belief that the People don't also have responsibilities associated with their Rights as a Person. With those Rights also come the Responsibilities of the Individual as a member of society. In fact the more "Responsible" the People become the less Responsibilities need to be addressed by the Government on our behalf to protect our Inalienable Rights.

The government should only intervene when our Inalienable Rights are being violated and not when they're not being violated and even then there are many cases where it cannot prevent or deter the violation but can only mitigate the effects of that violation of our Inalienable Rights.

For example if no one violated the "Law of Contracts" there would be no requirement for the government to address the violations of contracts. Can the government prevent contracts from being violated? No, but it can mitigate the effects of contracts being violated and that is what it does.    


In the vast majority of your replies on this forum, you argue for government, not against. You may only advocate for government where "rights are being violated" but you define rights being violated as anything that you personally don't like -- i.e., the modern Liberal position.
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Libertarians and conspiracy theories
Reply #39 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:52am
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Josh wrote on Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:25am:
Good point. This is why we need to be kidnapping & caging people based off little to no evidence.


Which we should note are violations in whole or in part of the 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and/or 14th Amendments to the US Constitution as well as numerous statutory laws of the United States (and international laws established by treaty if we refer to the cases of about 80 of the GITMO detainees). 
  
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