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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nelson Mandela (Read 3368 times)
keauxbi
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #10 - Dec 6th, 2013 at 12:32am
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I was laughing at the part where you didn't think that South Africa was worse off now than under apartheid.
  

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Crystallas
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #11 - Dec 6th, 2013 at 1:34am
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Hah, Mandela is the least of our worries.

If every dictator was like him, then the world would be far more free(not speaking positively about Mandela, but just how oppressive world leaders are). No scenario coming out of the apartheid would have been positive in any way that would have been compatible with libertarianism. Which sucks, because the racially motivated policy was clouding the people's ability to seek better solutions.
  
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Bourgeois
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #12 - Dec 6th, 2013 at 3:40am
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Crystallas wrote on Dec 6th, 2013 at 1:34am:
Hah, Mandela is the least of our worries.

If every dictator was like him, then the world would be far more free(not speaking positively about Mandela, but just how oppressive world leaders are). No scenario coming out of the apartheid would have been positive in any way that would have been compatible with libertarianism. Which sucks, because the racially motivated policy was clouding the people's ability to seek better solutions.

Yeah, if all of our dictators were terrorists, we'd be much more free. Roll Eyes

And white genocide is totally the least of our worries.
« Last Edit: Dec 6th, 2013 at 5:47am by Bourgeois »  

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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #13 - Dec 6th, 2013 at 6:42pm
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And that's all I have to say.
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #14 - Dec 6th, 2013 at 6:58pm
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Quote:


And that's all I have to say.


Shocked
Game. Set. Match.
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #15 - Dec 6th, 2013 at 7:13pm
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keauxbi wrote on Dec 6th, 2013 at 12:32am:
I was laughing at the part where you didn't think that South Africa was worse off now than under apartheid.

Grin

Nice. Well the fact is that I don't know if it was or wasn't. This is why I said I am neutral about Mandela. I definitely don't like how the ANC is running things and it's essentially a corrupt one-party state. That said, I don't think going back to Apartheid is a good idea at all. If they could somehow have a free society as well as a multi-party state then it would be considerably better in South Africa for everyone.

One Party rule is never justified and always tyrannical and usually gets corrupt pretty quickly - since the party in charge can do virtually anything they want.

This does not mean that Apartheid is a good policy or that we should go to that now. I agree that it's not great in South Africa but in all honesty, I don't live there. I can hear from left wing propagandists about how it's a shining beacon of freedom and equality and I can hear from right wing propagandists about how it's a tyrannical crime-ridden state and Mandela was a Terrorist, etc.

In the end, I prefer to think for myself and not form a strong opinion about South Africa unless I actually go there myself or at least speak with different people from South Africa about the country (in person). Propaganda is something I always look at skeptically, which is why I don't view Mandela as a Saint or as a Tyrant. He's just a guy who was boosted up by the media to be viewed as a Saint. This doesn't necessarily make him bad and South Africa could have been better or worse under Apartheid, I don't know since I am not there and I won't trust some random article that you or I or anyone else could have written and made shit up about. Fact is, I don't know jack about South Africa and thus I withold any strong opinion about it beyond the fact that they no longer have Apartheid and allow gays and lesbians to get married. Those are some of the only things I know for sure about South Africa, the rest is Propaganda/to be taken with a grain of salt at this point.


keauxbi wrote on Dec 6th, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Shocked
Game. Set. Match.

Not really, if you like I can easily find several white, black, asian, etc. South Africans who will say that things were terrible under Apartheid and that the ANC is glorious and is working hard to improve things. Finding one (or even several people) person who will say something is not evidence of anything.

Also, check out what Santorum had to say:

Nelson Mandela stood up against a great injustice and was willing to pay a huge price for that, and thats the reason he is mourned today, because of that struggle that he performedand I would make the argument that we have a great injustice going on right now in this country with an ever increasing size of government that is taking over and controlling peoples lives, and Obamacare is front and center in that.

Grin
  
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keauxbi
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #16 - Dec 6th, 2013 at 9:55pm
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Google "Santorum Urban Dictionary".

  

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zophos
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #17 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:26pm
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Does anyone disagree that the white government of South Africa was a fascist regime?  That Apartheid was the antithesis of libertarianism, of equality before the law, of limited government?

And so, wouldn't each of us (if we weren't such cowards who confine our "activism" to internet rants) also commit acts of violence against South Africa's Gang of Thieves?

I don't mean to say that the government Mandela created is acceptable to libertarians.  I mean that we believe in resistance to government, so how can we criticize Mandela for doing exactly that?  Was his not the "right kind" of resistance?  If you're fighting a mafia does it matter whether you subscribe to ideology A or B?
  

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keauxbi
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #18 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:33pm
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zophos wrote on Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:26pm:
Does anyone disagree that the white government of South Africa was a fascist regime? That Apartheid was the antithesis of libertarianism, of equality before the law, of limited government?

And so, wouldn't each of us (if we weren't such cowards who confine our "activism" to internet rants) also commit acts of violence against South Africa's Gang of Thieves?

I don't mean to say that the government Mandela created is acceptable to libertarians. I mean that we believe in resistance to government, so how can we criticize Mandela for doing exactly that? Was his not the "right kind" of resistance? If you're fighting a mafia does it matter whether you subscribe to ideology A or B?


Apartheid was bad.  What has come since is worse.  Crime is up, poverty is up, rape and murder is up.  To assume that everything is hunky-dory since the end of apartheid is just ludicrous.  As the one South African said, "At least we could find work." (paraphrased)

The NAP basically condemns how Mandela went about resisting government.  Mandela was classified as a terrorist by the US government because he engaged in acts of terror.  He was also an advocate for communism which doesn't comport with private property rights.  If you fail on the two main tenants of libertarianism, you should not have the support of libertarians.

It's like a rapist being taken out by a murderer for control of a ghetto.
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #19 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:36pm
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keauxbi wrote on Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:33pm:
Apartheid was bad. What has come since is worse. Crime is up, poverty is up, rape and murder is up. To assume that everything is hunky-dory since the end of apartheid is just ludicrous. As the one South African said, "At least we could find work." (paraphrased)

The NAP basically condemns how Mandela went about resisting government. Mandela was classified as a terrorist by the US government because he engaged in acts of terror. He was also an advocate for communism which doesn't comport with private property rights. If you fail on the two main tenants of libertarianism, you should not have the support of libertarians.

It's like a rapist being taken out by a murderer for control of a ghetto.

Link? Also, whether Mandela had ties to communists or not makes no difference when the policies he put in place when taking power were far from any form of Communism.

Let's see the data from during Apartheid and compare if crime and poverty really are worse for the average person. Maybe this is true for the wealthier people there but I doubt it holds true for everyone. Some article written by some random person doesn't count as evidence of anything.

I could write that South Africa is a shining beacon of freedom and equality. Does this make it true? Where's the evidence?
  
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