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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nelson Mandela (Read 3568 times)
zophos
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #20 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:38pm
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keauxbi wrote on Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:33pm:
Apartheid was bad.  What has come since is worse.  Crime is up, poverty is up, rape and murder is up.  To assume that everything is hunky-dory since the end of apartheid is just ludicrous.  As the one South African said, "At least we could find work." (paraphrased)

The NAP basically condemns how Mandela went about resisting government.  Mandela was classified as a terrorist by the US government because he engaged in acts of terror.  He was also an advocate for communism which doesn't comport with private property rights.  If you fail on the two main tenants of libertarianism, you should not have the support of libertarians.

It's like a rapist being taken out by a murderer for control of a ghetto. 

What sorts of terrorism?  The destruction of government property?  Sounds perfectly fine to me!  Even (lethal) violence against government agents I could see as legally permissible (though I wouldn't personally support lethal action even against people who deserve it)

Now, if Mandela was blowing up buses of white people (or doing other kinds of violence to innocents) that's bad.  But without further information on the specific types of terrorism Mandela carried out, I reserve judgment.

And just because the US government calls a person a terrorist does not make it so.  Hell, we all exhibit the "warning signs" of domestic terrorists according to the Dept of Homeland Security.

As for the results of Mandela's resistance - isn't that beside the point?  If an anarchist revolution left the poor hypothetically worse off in America, that doesn't make the revolution wrong, does it?
  

Bread and Circuses
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Liberalterian
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #21 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 9:44pm
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http://thegrio.com/2013/12/06/ted-cruz-trashed-for-paying-tribute-to-nelson-mand...

The commenters on Ted Cruz's Facebook must be you guys.  Grin
  
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #22 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 8:59am
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Liberalterian
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #23 - Dec 11th, 2013 at 2:19am
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Coopers
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #24 - Dec 11th, 2013 at 2:44am
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At least Mandela left South Africa with the innovation to invent two very handy devices:



  
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Firecycle
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #25 - Dec 11th, 2013 at 8:33pm
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zophos wrote on Dec 7th, 2013 at 4:26pm:
Does anyone disagree that the white government of South Africa was a fascist regime?  That Apartheid was the antithesis of libertarianism, of equality before the law, of limited government?

And so, wouldn't each of us (if we weren't such cowards who confine our "activism" to internet rants) also commit acts of violence against South Africa's Gang of Thieves?

I don't mean to say that the government Mandela created is acceptable to libertarians.  I mean that we believe in resistance to government, so how can we criticize Mandela for doing exactly that?  Was his not the "right kind" of resistance?  If you're fighting a mafia does it matter whether you subscribe to ideology A or B?


If you are actually fighting for freedom, then you will not use a tactic that makes civilian deaths inevitable.
  


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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #26 - Dec 11th, 2013 at 8:44pm
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Furthermore, after Mandela, it became even less libertarian. South Africa is now socialist.
  

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LibertariCAN
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #27 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 10:52am
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Liberalterian wrote on Dec 11th, 2013 at 2:19am:



Well after he was convinced of this point by world leaders he said:

Quote:
“I came home to say: ‘Chaps, we have to choose. We either keep nationalization and get no investment, or we modify our own attitude and get investment.”


Sounds like he was talking about more freedom for corporatism and global trade dominance to me.

And also, gotta love the standard New York Times B.S. at the end too:

Quote:
his dream of creating a country that, as he said, is “a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities” may still remain a dream that capitalism and free markets have yet to solve.



  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #28 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 11:24am
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LibertariCAN wrote on Dec 12th, 2013 at 10:52am:
Well after he was convinced of this point by world leaders he said:


Sounds like he was talking about more freedom for corporatism and global trade dominance to me.

And also, gotta love the standard New York Times B.S. at the end too:

That's true but what other options are there for South Africa? It appears to be either Corporatism, Socialism, or just South African private businesses? I am not sure how a country can get away without having big corporations investing money into it. This has negatives but the negatives of not doing this seems to outweigh those.
  
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LibertariCAN
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Re: Nelson Mandela
Reply #29 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 11:27am
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Liberalterian wrote on Dec 12th, 2013 at 11:24am:
That's true but what other options are there for South Africa? It appears to be either Corporatism, Socialism, or just South African private businesses? I am not sure how a country can get away without having big corporations investing money into it. This has negatives but the negatives of not doing this seems to outweigh those.


Opening up to international trade isn't necessarily a problem. What is a problem is giving exclusive privelages to certain corporations, and countries and so on and so forth.
  

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