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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are you left wing or right wing? (Read 4821 times)
zophos
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #10 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 4:16pm
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Too many vague questions.  I got 100% right wing and 72% left, I had a good portion of questions as "not sure" just due to the way they were worded.

I'd like to know how we define left and right wing.  It's not like communist versus nationalist.  I see it as being more radical, anarchist, iconoclast, reformist on the Left and more traditional, ordered, aristocratic and hierarchical on the Right.  In which case I think I'd identify as Left wing.  I don't think that liberal trade policies (free trade, etc) should be considered a Right wing phenomenon.
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #11 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 4:18pm
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zophos wrote on Dec 8th, 2013 at 4:16pm:
Too many vague questions.  I got 100% right wing and 72% left, I had a good portion of questions as "not sure" just due to the way they were worded.

I'd like to know how we define left and right wing.  It's not like communist versus nationalist.  I see it as being more radical, anarchist, iconoclast, reformist on the Left and more traditional, ordered, aristocratic and hierarchical on the Right.  In which case I think I'd identify as Left wing.  I don't think that liberal trade policies (free trade, etc) should be considered a Right wing phenomenon. 

The problem with that definition is that there are right wing anarchists - including on this very board. What do you say to that?
  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #12 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 4:46pm
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The way I see the scale is
                                           
Upholding Common Property   •-----------------------------------------------------• Upholding Private Property
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #13 - Dec 9th, 2013 at 7:19am
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zophos wrote on Dec 8th, 2013 at 4:16pm:
Too many vague questions.  I got 100% right wing and 72% left, I had a good portion of questions as "not sure" just due to the way they were worded.


I found the same problem but then realized that the "test" is based upon "social conservative v progressive liberal" and that is an inherent flaw.

It would be my conclusion that a "libertarian" should be balanced between "Left" and "Right" and anyone that isn't needs to re-evaluate their own political ideologies.

We live in a society and by necessity there must be a balance between the needs of society and our individual rights as a person when it comes to government.
  
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Liberalterian
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #14 - Dec 9th, 2013 at 7:33am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 9th, 2013 at 7:19am:
We live in a society and by necessity there must be a balance between the needs of society and our individual rights as a person when it comes to government.

Ok then Rousseau.  Grin
  
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #15 - Dec 9th, 2013 at 12:16pm
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A society is made up of individuals so the only way a "society" can have rights is individual rights.
  

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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #16 - Dec 9th, 2013 at 4:18pm
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Awesome wrote on Dec 9th, 2013 at 12:16pm:
A society is made up of individuals so the only way a "society" can have rights is individual rights.

What's also notable is that only individuals can "act." When we say a business or a government does something, we're talking metaphorically. In reality, certain individuals are interacting with other individuals in a certain way to achieve an end.
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #17 - Dec 10th, 2013 at 6:54am
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Josh wrote on Dec 9th, 2013 at 4:18pm:
What's also notable is that only individuals can "act." When we say a business or a government does something, we're talking metaphorically. In reality, certain individuals are interacting with other individuals in a certain way to achieve an end.


.... and left to their own devices individuals acting alone or in packs, groups, or gangs will violate the rights of individuals for their own benefit..... often violently..... which is why we form governments to protect us from the violations of our rights by others.

Many complain about the coercive force of government while ignoring that individuals are far more coercive in their actions. For every 'act of aggression' against a person by "government" there are far more 'acts of aggression' against persons by other persons.

For example in an older study it was found that law enforcement offices killed, on an average, 373 people per year over a 20 year time period. Overwhelmingly these are cases of self-defence by the law enforcement officer either protecting themselves or others.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6_58i0hiBcMC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=number+of+ci...

At the same time in 2010 there 16,259 homicides in the US.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm


  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #18 - Dec 10th, 2013 at 7:32am
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People talk about the "right of property" and don't have a clue about what a "right of property" really is. I've addressed this before and few here seem to understand it.

The "Right of Property" is established by the labor of the Person. A person, with their labor, produces a commodity, and they can exchange that commodity for a commodity that someone else produced. There are caveats though.

Where and how did the person obtain the physical materials to produce the commodity? Did they steal them from someone else?

As individual persons don't "own" the natural resources so fundamentally anything we produce with "our hands" is from materials that don't belong to us as a person. Nature literally belongs to all living creatures of the Earth.

Pragmatically can logically argue that we can "take from nature" the surpluses of nature where we don't violate anyone elses rights that also share the "ownership" of nature.

By way of example we can "fish for tuna" but we can only take the surplus of tuna that nature provides. Over-fishing has resulted in the decline of the tuna population by 60% and that over-fishing is the "theft" of a natural resource.

Moving on we can also obtain ownership by trading that which we produced by our labor for something produced by another person. This is the exchange of a "commodity for a commodity" but when was the last time any of us did this? Typically we exchange "fiat currency" either physically or digitally for that which we purchase but "fiat currency" by definition is not a commodity and does not represent a commodity.

Basically everything we "think we own" was obtained with counterfeit "money" and we don't really have any "inalienable Right of Property" rights to it as it was all established by government fiat and not based upon the Right of Property established by the "Labor of the Person" related to materials that represent a "surplus" of nature where the Rights of other Persons are not violated.

In truth most people's understanding of "property rights" (especially "conservatives") is based upon the "divine Right of Kings" where the monarch (head of government) owned everything and then gave "title" to property to individuals by "government" fiat. It is not based upon the "Inalienable Rights of the Person" as established by the labor of the individual. 
  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #19 - Dec 10th, 2013 at 8:48am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 10th, 2013 at 6:54am:
... and left to their own devices individuals acting alone or in packs, groups, or gangs will violate the rights of individuals for their own benefit..... often violently..... which is why we form governments to protect us from the violations of .our rights by others.

Yup; that's right. Because individuals are sick, but government is thy Divine Lord and Above All Individuals which is why we need its Majesty and Mysticalness to guide us to the correct path. Glad you could clear that up for us.

Quote:
Many complain about the coercive force of government while ignoring that individuals are far more coercive in their actions. For every 'act of aggression' against a person by "government" there are far more 'acts of aggression' against persons by other persons.


For example in an older study it was found that law enforcement offices killed, on an average, 373 people per year over a 20 year time period. Overwhelmingly these are cases of self-defence by the law enforcement officer either protecting themselves or others.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6_58i0hiBcMC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=number+of+ci...

At the same time in 2010 there 16,259 homicides in the US.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Yup, yup. Of course, we have to ignore the whole "mass murdering" thing the government does overseas because those are just brown people so who gives a crap about them. We also have to ignore that threatening murder is a form of aggression which is by definition what the government does to sustain itself and conduct business and the only reason people aren't killed by government is because they're coerced into abiding by their rules. Additionally, of course, we have to ignore the fact that government has been the most violent form of organization throughout history. On top of that, the very statistics you're quoting between individuals is under a statist system which only shows its failure at preventing crime rather than success... but besides that, yeah, you're totally right -- creating a massive entity which asserts a violently exclusive monopoly on force in a given geographical location and sustains itself by coercively extorting funds from the people within these chosen lines and arbitrarily places whatever rules it wants on the people with the use of aggression to enforce these rules is a GREAT way to stop coercion!
  

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