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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are you left wing or right wing? (Read 4819 times)
Coopers
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #20 - Dec 10th, 2013 at 10:44am
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Right wing: 100%
Left wing: 12%

I guess a lot of people do get more conservative with age. Maybe I'm turning into a Tory-turd like Jacob. Wink
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #21 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 10:54am
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I continue to see this as a "test" conparing "social conservative" with "progressive liberal" political ideologies where both are fundamentally flawed.

While I can point out significant flaws with "progressive liberal" political ideologies since most are coming up with low "Left" ratings and high "Right" ratings I'll address one fundamental problem with it.

Much of the "Right" rating is based upon the Right of Property but there is a flaw with that as people have such a poor understanding when it comes to the Right of Property.

For example, a "social conservative" would typically state that if a person owns land with gold (or another natural resouce) on the land they are entitled to the full financial benefits of the value of that "gold" on their land. The problem is that they don't "own the gold" as it is a natural resource that they did not produce with their labor. They would be entitled to "fair" compensation related to the recovery of the gold but should not be the sole recepients of the value of the gold that doesn't belong to them as it is a natural resource and not a commodity they produced by labor. They merely "bring it to market" and did not create it with their labor.

People are applying 17th Century political ideologies  of "property" based upon the Divine Right of Kings as opposed to addressing Property Rights based upon the Inalienable Rights of the Person.

The "social conservative" political ideology also allows many unmitigated economic acts of aggression by individuals. They don't see that denial of equality of economic opportunity based upon invidious criteria such as skin color is an act of aggression against the person but it is.

As libertarians we advocate the NAP but then ignore it whenever it conflicts with our personal greed. Denial of equality of economic opportunity based upon "skin color" is an act of aggression by the person.

"Not hiring" a person is an "act" just like "hiring" a person is an act. So long as it is based upon the qualifications of the person as opposed to invidious criteria it is not an act of aggression but by applying invidious criteria it becomes and act of aggression that violates the Rights of the Person.

It would be my argument that as libertarians we should be "progressive conservatives" and the scores should be representative of a balance between the two extremes.
  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #22 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 11:48am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 13th, 2013 at 10:54am:
"Not hiring" a person is an "act" just like "hiring" a person is an act.

Another brilliant remark from our super libertarian member, Shiva.
Inaction = action
Black = white
Up =down
square = circle
It's BRILLIANCE, I tell ya.
Did you know that you can actually be liable and criminal for anything? That's right, because "not" doing something is an act just as "doing something" is an act. By not saving people from dying every second, you're automatically a criminal!
I propose we eliminate this crazy "libertarian" stuff and go with Shiva-logic from now on. If I mine gold on my own property, it's not just my property, but that property also belongs to black people 'cause affirmative action.
Taxation is voluntary because it's theft from government instead of theft from individuals and government is thy omnipotent Lord!
In fact, we should just turn to government as the solution to everything! "Regulation" (government violently placing arbitrary controls on individuals who act in a certain peaceful way with other individuals) is necessary!
Also, we can kill babies because a particular seven people appointed into a particular position by particular people said so!
w00t! Shiva-logic!
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #23 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 1:30pm
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Josh wrote on Dec 13th, 2013 at 11:48am:
Another brilliant remark from our super libertarian member, Shiva.


All persons have a Inalienable Right of Equality and it is actually a protected right under the "equal protection clause" of the 14th Amendment.

Decisions based upon merit do not violate the Rights of the Person but decisions based upon invidious criteria (e.g. race, gender, religion, or ethnic heritage) that adversely affect the person are a fundamental violation of their Inalienable Rights as well as being a violation of statutory laws of the United States.

If an employer writes "Rejected for being Black" on an employment application they would be prosecuted under the laws of the United States based upon the 14th Amendment. The criteria of "black" is not a determination made based upon merit but instead is based upon invidious criteria that denies the person equal protection under the law.

Of course an employer is not going to write "Rejected for being Black" on an employment application as it provide evidence for prosecution. That doesn't imply that they're not violating the law or the protected Rights of the Person but merely that they're not providing evidence that would allow prosecution.

"Rejected for being Black" is an "action" by the "employer" and is an act of aggression as it violates the Inalienable Right of the Person to Equality that is protected in the United States. That action would violate the NAP.

  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #24 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 2:55pm
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 13th, 2013 at 1:30pm:
"Rejected for being Black" is an "action" by the "employer" and is an act of aggression as it violates the Inalienable Right of the Person to Equality that is protected in the United States. That action would violate the NAP.

Then you have absolutely no understanding of the NAP. Is it aggression for a woman to reject a man asking her out because he's black?
  

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Coopers
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #25 - Dec 14th, 2013 at 3:57pm
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RACIST!
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #26 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 1:11pm
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Josh wrote on Dec 13th, 2013 at 2:55pm:
Then you have absolutely no understanding of the NAP. Is it aggression for a woman to reject a man asking her out because he's black?


I seriously doubt that the "black" man could argue that he suffered a financial loss from the rejection which would represent denial of economic opportunity.

Of course I would hope that a woman wouldn't reject a man asking for a date based upon invidious racial prejudice but so long as the man suffered no economic loss he doesn't have a claim related to denial of equality of economic opportunity.

Now if she refused him a job solely because he was black that would violate the NAP as the man would suffer a financial loss (i.e. be subjected to actual harm) based upon her actions.

The fundamental key related to the NAP is "did the person suffer any real or potential harm" from the action? 

The actual harm need not occur. A person can point a gun at another person and the other person hasn't been subjected to any actual harm but they have been subjected to "potential harm" that represents a violation of the NAP.
  
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #27 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 3:03pm
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 1:11pm:
The actual harm need not occur. A person can point a gun at another person and the other person hasn't been subjected to any actual harm but they have been subjected to "potential harm" that represents a violation of the NAP.

This is exactly why it is ok for me to shoot someone who just robbed me, turns to run, and then pulls out his weapon as I pursue him. He has already caused potential harm on my body and has already done real harm towards me by taking my property.

Also, I agree with you on not hiring someone due to their race violating that person's ability to succeed. Thus harming his liberty. But at the same time I don't think I have ever heard someone trying to justify this using the Non-Aggression Principle. Very interesting...
  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #28 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 3:36pm
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Please read about things before claiming to be an expert on them. Ignorance is one thing but to convey an idea as if you know something about it when you have clearly read nothing on the subject makes you look stupid.
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #29 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 3:46pm
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Josh wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 3:36pm:
Please read about things before claiming to be an expert on them. Ignorance is one thing but to convey an idea as if you know something about it when you have clearly read nothing on the subject makes you look stupid.

Is this directed to Shiva or me?
  
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