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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are you left wing or right wing? (Read 4822 times)
Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #30 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 4:08pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 3:46pm:
Is this directed to Shiva or me?

Shiva and his wonderful understanding of the non-aggression principle
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #31 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 12:46pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 3:03pm:
Also, I agree with you on not hiring someone due to their race violating that person's ability to succeed. Thus harming his liberty. But at the same time I don't think I have ever heard someone trying to justify this using the Non-Aggression Principle. Very interesting...


I don't believe that it is a farfetched conclusion that invidious discrimination that results in economic harm to a person isn't based upon a violation of the NAP.

Did the person that refused to hire the applicant based upon racism commit an action? Absolutely as the mere "act of rejection" is an action.

Was the "action" justifiable? If it was not based upon "merit" then the action was not justified.

Did the action result in "harm" to the Person. Absolutely as the person is denied employment not based upon merit (they could actually be the most qualified person) that would justify the action but instead based upon a criteria unrelated to merit that is not justifiable.

Whether the action was intentional or not  has no bearing on whether it was an act of aggression. A drunk driving up on the sidewalk killing an innocent person did not do that intentionally but it was still an act of aggression that violated the Rights of the Person.

Most cases of discrimination in employment based upon prejudice are unitentional as the person is unaware of the fact that they are prejudiced. It is "unintentional" but still meets the criteria of being an act of aggression.
  
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #32 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 2:00am
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So the government should look at every business and make sure that it hires enough blacks? How many blacks should it hire, by the way, for it to stop being aggression?
  

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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #33 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 6:25am
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Awesome wrote on Dec 20th, 2013 at 2:00am:
So the government should look at every business and make sure that it hires enough blacks? How many blacks should it hire, by the way, for it to stop being aggression?


A simple-minded proposal without merit and there is no foundation for making it. Even under the "Affirmative Action Guidelines" that were established for government contracted enteprises a "quota" system was never proposed.

Government is not the solution to all problems of society and those that believe that are idiots. We, the People, have a responsibility to individually address many if not most of the problems of society.

Where many fail in their political ideology is when they assume that they have no responsibilities related to the problems of society. Individual prejudice is a problem of the people that the people have a responsibility to address, not the government. WE, the PEOPLE, need to address the problem of individual prejudice that leads to discrimination and denial of the Rights of the Person in society.

We are failing, not the government, when it comes to discrimination based upon racial, religious, ethnic, social, or other invidious form of prejudice.

At best our government can mitigate the effects of OUR FAILURE to be responsible as individuals in society and address the problem of invidious prejudice.

Why are so many "liberatarians" opposed to Personal Responsibility when it comes to the problems in our society is a question I really must ask?

On the one hand many state that "a person needs to get a job and support themselves" while in the next breath they say "I can refuse to hire that person based solely upon my invidious prejudice that denies them equality of economic opportunity." Those are incompatable propositions.

Laissez faire capitalism can only exist if invidious prejudice that denies equality of economic opportunity is eliminated from the economy. What part of that do so many fail to understand? Products, services, and labor must all succeed or fail based upon "merit" alone in laissez faire capitalism. Coercion, regardless of whether it's by government or by individuals, that creates unfair advantages for some while discriminating against others are the greatest enemy of laissez faire capitalism and prevent it from succeeding. What part of that isn't being understood.

There has to be a "level playing field" for laissez faire capitalism to work.
  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #34 - Dec 20th, 2013 at 9:47am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 20th, 2013 at 6:25am:
Government is not the solution to all problems of society and those that believe that are idiots.

You advocate government as a solution far more than anyone else on this forum.

Just sayin'.
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #35 - Dec 22nd, 2013 at 6:43am
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Josh wrote on Dec 20th, 2013 at 9:47am:
You advocate government as a solution far more than anyone else on this forum.

Just sayin'.


There are perhaps some on this forum that don't believe in government at all (in which case they're not a libertarian but instead they're an anarchist). I'm not one of those as I believe the government does have a role in protecting our Inalienble Rights from violations of other persons in society. I also believe that government has a role in mitigating the effects of violations of our Inalienable Rights by others if those violations cannot be prevented.

When it comes to invidious individual prejudice which leads to denial of equality of economic opportunity, a violation of the Inalienable Right of Equality of all persons, then the government cannot prevent it but it can mitigate the effects of it. It is our responsibility as as persons to address the problem of invidious individual prejudice and if we do that then there is no need for government to mitigate the violations of the Rights of a Person that it causes.

It's a lot like poverty where one of the primary causes is invidious discrimination that violates the Rights of the Person and government welfare assistance that mitigates the effects of that poverty.

If we want to end government welfare we need to address the problem of poverty. End the poverty and there is no need for the assistance. As the invidious discrimination is reduced so are the costs of mitigating the effects of it.

I address "problems" while others offer nothing but meaningless political platitudes in many cases. I'm a pragmatist that looks for the root causes of problems and then seek a solution to the problem as opposed to ignoring the problem as if it didn't exist. 
   
So perhaps I do advocate more government than some others on this forum because there is a place for government in our society. We would be far worse off without government than we are today. From my perspective though we have government doing too much of what is shouldn't be doing and not enough of what it should be doing. Perhaps that is the difference.

I advocate those things that government should be doing while condemning government for what is shouldn't be doing. Others ignore the vital roles of government as they are simple-minded in believing all government is bad.
  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #36 - Dec 22nd, 2013 at 11:22am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 6:43am:
I address "problems" while others offer nothing but meaningless political platitudes in many cases. I'm a pragmatist that looks for the root causes of problems and then seek a solution to the problem as opposed to ignoring the problem as if it didn't exist. 

The supposed "solution" to all your problems is to have the government wave a magic wand and place a "law," which will fix everything. You want to talk about simple-mindedness? Try believing within the confines of society's norms and go under the assumption that a group of politicians funded by lobbyists and elected by a majority of people who play the game of "politics" to run a massive monopoly on force sustained by the debt and extortion of the masses to use violence to enforce any of its rules is the solution to all problems. There's an inconceivable number of other means to achieve problems, but you're always so adamant that only this system could possibly work, and any other system would result in chaos. If you want to see someone who's simple-minded, all you have to do is purchase a mirror which, in your fantasy land, would probably be provided to everyone by the government.
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #37 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:15am
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Josh wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 11:22am:
The supposed "solution" to all your problems is to have the government wave a magic wand and place a "law," which will fix everything. You want to talk about simple-mindedness? Try believing within the confines of society's norms and go under the assumption that a group of politicians funded by lobbyists and elected by a majority of people who play the game of "politics" to run a massive monopoly on force sustained by the debt and extortion of the masses to use violence to enforce any of its rules is the solution to all problems. There's an inconceivable number of other means to achieve problems, but you're always so adamant that only this system could possibly work, and any other system would result in chaos. If you want to see someone who's simple-minded, all you have to do is purchase a mirror which, in your fantasy land, would probably be provided to everyone by the government.


How can someone be so consistantly be wrong?

Government overwhelmingly addresses problem created by People. For example there would have been no need for the 14th Amendment if "people" weren't violating the 9th Amendment by enslaving them and treating them as property.

When we look at the US Constitution, excluding the provisions establishing how government is constructed, virtually all of it is about protection of our Rights from the violations of other individuals. The problems ultimately lie with the people and not the government.

The vast majority of actions by government are necessary. Obviously there are politicans that have "gone too far" but those are actually rare cases when compared to the entire body of law that our government represents. Yes, some are very expensive (e.g. military interventionism) but they are still rather small when it comes to the roles and responsibilities of our government in protections of our Inalienable Rights.

We can compare it to OSHA regulations. Overwhelminly OSHA regulations are based upon the "best practices established by private enterprise" but there are a small percentage of those regulations that are really stupid and costly to enterprise that serve no legitimate purpose.

The belief that "government is inherently bad" is a silly position. Without government there would be no enforcement of contract. No protections of any Rights of the Person. No criminal justice system that makes a pragmatic attempt to prevent the convictions of the innocent.

The primary role of government is to protect us from other persons that would violate our Rights. That is a legitmate purpose as others have historical shown a disregard for the Rights of Others. For every "violation" of our Rights by government there are thousands of cases of individuals violating our Rights as Persons and that happens in spite of the fact that government is doing much  to prevent those violations.

We tend to forget that People are the real problem and not the government. Were in not for the "People" there would be no need for government at all.

Can government be abusive? There is no quesiton that this can and does happen but no one has ever offered a better solution when it comes to protecting our Inalienable Rights from violations by other persons.
  
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Liberalterian
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #38 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 1:23pm
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:15am:
No criminal justice system that makes a pragmatic attempt to prevent the convictions of the innocent.

What world do you live in? Seriously... Jupiter?
  
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Josh
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Re: Are you left wing or right wing?
Reply #39 - Dec 25th, 2013 at 2:52pm
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 24th, 2013 at 11:15am:
How can someone be so consistantly be wrong?

Government overwhelmingly addresses problem created by People. For example there would have been no need for the 14th Amendment if "people" weren't violating the 9th Amendment by enslaving them and treating them as property.

When we look at the US Constitution, excluding the provisions establishing how government is constructed, virtually all of it is about protection of our Rights from the violations of other individuals. The problems ultimately lie with the people and not the government.

The vast majority of actions by government are necessary. Obviously there are politicans that have "gone too far" but those are actually rare cases when compared to the entire body of law that our government represents. Yes, some are very expensive (e.g. military interventionism) but they are still rather small when it comes to the roles and responsibilities of our government in protections of our Inalienable Rights.

We can compare it to OSHA regulations. Overwhelminly OSHA regulations are based upon the "best practices established by private enterprise" but there are a small percentage of those regulations that are really stupid and costly to enterprise that serve no legitimate purpose.

The belief that "government is inherently bad" is a silly position. Without government there would be no enforcement of contract. No protections of any Rights of the Person. No criminal justice system that makes a pragmatic attempt to prevent the convictions of the innocent.

The primary role of government is to protect us from other persons that would violate our Rights. That is a legitmate purpose as others have historical shown a disregard for the Rights of Others. For every "violation" of our Rights by government there are thousands of cases of individuals violating our Rights as Persons and that happens in spite of the fact that government is doing much  to prevent those violations.

We tend to forget that People are the real problem and not the government. Were in not for the "People" there would be no need for government at all.

Can government be abusive? There is no quesiton that this can and does happen but no one has ever offered a better solution when it comes to protecting our Inalienable Rights from violations by other persons.

Thank you for completely demonstrating my point in the very comment you replied to.
  

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