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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss (Read 6235 times)
Awesome
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #70 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 3:00am
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Crystallas wrote on Dec 28th, 2013 at 12:36pm:
But since we have been down this road before...
But alas! Who will build dat road if there is no government? Grin
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #71 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 7:05am
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Crystallas wrote on Dec 29th, 2013 at 6:09pm:
Like I said, we've been down this road before. Which is why discussing anything with you is useless.
This is the correct definition. Any other definition is based on political bias. Obvious bias. When I or many others say anarchy, it refers to this widely used definition. So everything in context refers to this definition, and arguing based on your own definition, or any politically biased definition, would be basically arguing against your own words. Just remember that, you are 100% arguing against yourself.

Anarchy: Without ruling class.


And this is pragmatically possible how? Pure "democracy" where "majority rule" leads to the tyranny of the majority over the minority? Equal distribution of wealth so that there isn't a "wealthy class" of individuals that control others?

How do we pragmatically eliminate any "ruling class" from society?

This seems to fall under the "Utopian" definition of Anarchy that is pragmatically impossible as utopia is a dream and not a reality. Poeple need to try living in the real world as opposed to Fantasyland. Anarchy under the utopian definition cannot exist in the world as we know it. It has never existed and cannot exist so what is the point of arguing for it?

I love to dream about utopia but I know it's a dream that is pragmatically impossible. There will always be someone that wants to exert power over others and they become the "rulers" in society. It would be nice if that were not a fact but it is a fact that cannot be ignored nor can it be completely neutralized. At best we can limit the power of the "ruling" class by pragmatic protections of those that are not the rulers.


  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #72 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 7:08am
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Awesome wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 3:00am:
But alas! Who will build dat road if there is no government? Grin


No one as no individual has a Right to Own the Earth over which the road must be constructed. We did not produce the Earth with our Labor and have no Property Rights related to ownership of the Earth.

  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #73 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 7:19am
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Land of Freedom wrote on Dec 29th, 2013 at 2:00pm:
Shouldn't money be private rather than governments printing it? What's democratic control of monetary policy? Do we vote to put printed money in our pockets? Or do politicians say people voted to put money in their favorite government projects? And we thought there was unstable money under the Fed. Imagine democratic money.


Money, by strict definition, is a commonly accepted commodity used to facilitate the barter system. Traditionally it has been gold, silver and copper (but has also been beads and even tulip bulbs) and the government, which is a political entity cannot produce any commodities that are only produced by persons.

The government actually issues "promissory notes" as currency and those notes "promise" redemption in "money" but are not actually money. The government using traditional "money" (i.e. gold, silver and copper bullion) can authorize "coining" of the "money" which is merely the production of certified tokens containing the "money" which is the metal. These tokens, by government fiat, are declared "lawful money" and "legal tender" for commerce within the national economy.

The government cannot "create" the gold, silver or copper bullion that is traditionally money in commerce and therefore cannot "create" money. It can coin it, it can certify it, and it can make it "lawful legal tender" but it cannot create the actual bullion.

People are generally ignorant in believing that "promissory notes (e.g. Federal Reserve notes) are money as they are not. They are just promissory notes and like all promissory notes they are discounted in the market based upon how difficult it is to redeem the note. We mistakenly call the discounting of the notes as "inflation" but the actual value of the "money" (i.e. gold, silver, and copper bullion) remains fundamentally unchanged historically.

  
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Josh
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #74 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 10:17am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 7:08am:
No one as no individual has a Right to Own the Earth over which the road must be constructed. We did not produce the Earth with our Labor and have no Property Rights related to ownership of the Earth.


Yeah! Private companies have never can never and will never build stuff on the Earth! That's impossible! Good thinking, Shiva!
  

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Shiva_TD
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #75 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 10:44am
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Josh wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 10:17am:
Yeah! Private companies have never can never and will never build stuff on the Earth! That's impossible! Good thinking, Shiva! http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_3335.gif


Try actually reading what I stated instead of making crap up. I stated that a person cannot "own the Earth" and that is accurate. That doesn't imply that a person cannot "use the Earth" but there are pragmatic limitations to the use of the Earth as no one can actually own it.

Based upon the Rights of the Person a person cannot claim a Right to Use the Earth and no such Right exists as it would conflict with the Rights of Other Persons to use the Earth and Rights cannot conflict.

Pragmatically, based upon authorizations granted under a Social Contract, limited exclusive authority to Use the Earth (land) can be granted so long as the use is limited to purposes that benefit society as a whole. That limited authority does infringe upon the Freedom to Exercise the Inalienable Rights of the Person that are denied use of the same piece of land but that is justifiable so long as the limitation can be supported by compelling argument as a pragmatic necessity for the benefit of society as a whole.

So with "government" established by a social contract the limited exclusive use of land can be granted but without government then no one has a Right of Exclusive Use of the Land as we did not create the land by our labor and have no Right of Property related to it.

Seriously it appears that there are "libertarians" that want to advocate the Inalienable Rights of the Person but have never considered what they actually are. This is especially true when we address the Right of Property of the Person that can only be established by the Labor of the Person.

In short the "goverment" can authorize the use of land to build a road based upon the compelling argument that the road benefits society and it is authorized to do this based upon the social contract but an individual does not have that authority as a person as they do not own the land.
  
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Josh
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #76 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 11:49am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 10:44am:
Try actually reading what I stated instead of making crap up. I stated that a person cannot "own the Earth" and that is accurate. That doesn't imply that a person cannot "use the Earth" but there are pragmatic limitations to the use of the Earth as no one can actually own it.

No, no, no, no. Back up before you go off on your fallacious "philosophy." In response to:
Awesome wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 3:00am:
But alas! Who will build dat road if there is no government? Grin

You said:
Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 7:08am:
No one as no individual has a Right to Own the Earth over which the road must be constructed. We did not produce the Earth with our Labor and have no Property Rights related to ownership of the Earth.

Your answer to "who will build the roads" was "no one." Either back that up first or admit you're completely incorrect.
  

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Crystallas
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Re: Green Party!? Jill Stein? Yesss
Reply #77 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 3:17pm
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Shiva_TD wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 7:05am:
And this is pragmatically possible how? Pure "democracy" where "majority rule" leads to the tyranny of the majority over the minority? Equal distribution of wealth so that there isn't a "wealthy class" of individuals that control others?

How do we pragmatically eliminate any "ruling class" from society?

This seems to fall under the "Utopian" definition of Anarchy that is pragmatically impossible as utopia is a dream and not a reality. Poeple need to try living in the real world as opposed to Fantasyland. Anarchy under the utopian definition cannot exist in the world as we know it. It has never existed and cannot exist so what is the point of arguing for it?

I love to dream about utopia but I know it's a dream that is pragmatically impossible. There will always be someone that wants to exert power over others and they become the "rulers" in society. It would be nice if that were not a fact but it is a fact that cannot be ignored nor can it be completely neutralized. At best we can limit the power of the "ruling" class by pragmatic protections of those that are not the rulers.




Please revert to the other two(maybe three?) topics we talked about this. Unlike you, I remember that this discussion occurred.
  
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