Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Russia Invades Ukraine
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Russia Invades Ukraine (Read 2638 times)
Liberalterian
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3316
Joined: Feb 6th, 2011
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #10 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:05am
Print Post  
Yeah I agree with the above that they should split Ukraine up. There seems to be a relatively nice split. The western side wants to be closer to the west/Europe and the eastern part wants to be closer to Russia. Well, let's split them based off this and voila!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 36176
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #11 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 9:03am
Print Post  
Perhaps Ukraine did actually turn over all their nukes to Russia... perhaps not. Some Ukrainians are talking like they didn't. Since they were relying on the U.S., G.B., France and Russia to "guarantee" their borders, they would have been wise to keep some.

Tsarist Russia wasn't doing very well even prior to the beginning of WWI, it was ripe for some sort of revolution, and unfortunately for the Russians and the world, got a communist revolution.

Any country living next door to Russia is likely to need lots of military strength.

Trade wars traditionally lead to shooting wars.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 36176
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #12 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 9:11am
Print Post  
Liberalterian wrote on Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:05am:
Yeah I agree with the above that they should split Ukraine up. There seems to be a relatively nice split. The western side wants to be closer to the west/Europe and the eastern part wants to be closer to Russia. Well, let's split them based off this and voila!

Who is this "they" and "us" you're talking about that should go around splitting up countries? Will they split California from the U.S., if most Californians wants to be closer to Europe (or China)?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Liberalterian
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3316
Joined: Feb 6th, 2011
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #13 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 11:33am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Mar 5th, 2014 at 9:11am:
Who is this "they" and "us" you're talking about that should go around splitting up countries? Will they split California from the U.S., if most Californians wants to be closer to Europe (or China)?

"They" refers to the Ukrainian people. And sure, if most Californians vote on that then why not? Hell they should be able to vote for total independence too if that's what they want. Same thing applies to Ukrainians or Germans or Japanese or Chinese people. Let them do as they please.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 36176
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #14 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 3:08pm
Print Post  
Liberalterian wrote on Mar 5th, 2014 at 11:33am:
"They" refers to the Ukrainian people. And sure, if most Californians vote on that then why not? Hell they should be able to vote for total independence too if that's what they want. Same thing applies to Ukrainians or Germans or Japanese or Chinese people. Let them do as they please.

Should I parse this statement out for you? You said- "Well, let's split them based off this and voila!"
That's where the "us" comes from. Let us split them off. "
I don't think that's "our" responsibility, or that we have any authority to do it.
Maybe you're Ukrainian?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Liberalterian
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3316
Joined: Feb 6th, 2011
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #15 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 8:34pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Mar 5th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
Should I parse this statement out for you? You said- "Well, let's split them based off this and voila!"
That's where the "us" comes from. Let us split them off. "
I don't think that's "our" responsibility, or that we have any authority to do it.
Maybe you're Ukrainian?

Well no, I didn't mean literally for the United States to mandate this to them.

What I meant was maybe representatives from the Pro-West Ukraine, EU, U.S, and East-Ukraine and Russia could come together and reach a diplomatic settlement together in order to prevent violence.

You know sorta like how it worked with North and South Korea?

I agree that the U.S. shouldn't be involved in this but unfortunately the U.S. does have treaties that mandate it assures Ukrainian independence (as well as Russia and the UK, I believe they also are part of such an arrangement). Thus it seems reasonable for us to at least attempt to bring both sides to the negotiating table and see if a non-violent agreement can't be reached.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 36176
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #16 - Mar 12th, 2014 at 9:00am
Print Post  
Liberalterian wrote on Mar 5th, 2014 at 8:34pm:
Well no, I didn't mean literally for the United States to mandate this to them.

What I meant was maybe representatives from the Pro-West Ukraine, EU, U.S, and East-Ukraine and Russia could come together and reach a diplomatic settlement together in order to prevent violence.

You know sorta like how it worked with North and South Korea?

I agree that the U.S. shouldn't be involved in this but unfortunately the U.S. does have treaties that mandate it assures Ukrainian independence (as well as Russia and the UK, I believe they also are part of such an arrangement). Thus it seems reasonable for us to at least attempt to bring both sides to the negotiating table and see if a non-violent agreement can't be reached.

How, exactly, did it "work" for Korea? They are still technically at war 64 years after the communists tried to take over the entire country, and I'm pretty sure almost everyone in North Korea doesn't think it's "worked" very well.
You favor more of the same U.N./NATO/SEATO/whatever multinational efforts to prevent inter-nation violence (and of course violence by governments against their own subjects.) And I guess the U.S. will have to lead these efforts, and pay for them, because nobody else will.
I don't like your idea. I like George Washington's plan- stay out of the worlds conflicts and allow free trade with everyone.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Liberalterian
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3316
Joined: Feb 6th, 2011
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #17 - Mar 12th, 2014 at 12:49pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2014 at 9:00am:
How, exactly, did it "work" for Korea? They are still technically at war 64 years after the communists tried to take over the entire country, and I'm pretty sure almost everyone in North Korea doesn't think it's "worked" very well.
You favor more of the same U.N./NATO/SEATO/whatever multinational efforts to prevent inter-nation violence (and of course violence by governments against their own subjects.) And I guess the U.S. will have to lead these efforts, and pay for them, because nobody else will.
I don't like your idea. I like George Washington's plan- stay out of the worlds conflicts and allow free trade with everyone.

I pretty much agree with this and am not a supporter of the UN, EU, NATO, or any of those.

That said, I do think it would be beneficial to use diplomacy and attempt to reach a peaceful settlement in the conflict. I don't think the U.S. should ever send troops to Ukraine or Crimea if negotiations fail. I also don't think the U.S. should lead the efforts. Preferably Ukraine and Crimea would lead negotiations though I could see Russia and the EU leading negotiations in a hypothetical situation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 36176
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #18 - Mar 13th, 2014 at 8:41am
Print Post  
Liberalterian wrote on Mar 12th, 2014 at 12:49pm:
I pretty much agree with this and am not a supporter of the UN, EU, NATO, or any of those.

That said, I do think it would be beneficial to use diplomacy and attempt to reach a peaceful settlement in the conflict. I don't think the U.S. should ever send troops to Ukraine or Crimea if negotiations fail. I also don't think the U.S. should lead the efforts. Preferably Ukraine and Crimea would lead negotiations though I could see Russia and the EU leading negotiations in a hypothetical situation.

It appears to me that the people in charge in Russia are the same people who have been in charge since 1917, i.e. the Cheka, KGB- whatever they are calling themselves now.
How has negotiating with them gone in the past?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Liberalterian
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3316
Joined: Feb 6th, 2011
Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
Reply #19 - Mar 13th, 2014 at 7:43pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Mar 13th, 2014 at 8:41am:
It appears to me that the people in charge in Russia are the same people who have been in charge since 1917, i.e. the Cheka, KGB- whatever they are calling themselves now.
How has negotiating with them gone in the past?

Pretty well, what about the Cuban Missile Crisis? The thing is we need someone who is an effective negotiator - not Mr. Boring McFootinMouth John Kerry. JFK was great at negotiating and speaking with the Russians.

In any case, diplomacy is always a good thing. Entangling alliances are not. Thus why I would not support guaranteeing Ukrainian Independence but I am certainly for trying to negotiate and trying to help them avoid an overt shooting war.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Russia Invades Ukraine
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy