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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alright, so I admit... (Read 9425 times)
Josh
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #10 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 7:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 5:23pm:
You mean like if we suddenly had no government at all, everything would just be beautiful, peaceful, happy, healthy and loving?
So it must be the government that's causing all these people to break the law, rob and rape, pillage and murder?

Is there science to support that theory?

No, sorry, you probably meant the part about you knowing nothing and your philosophy being silly.

lol what?
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #11 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 5:23pm:
You mean like if we suddenly had no government at all, everything would just be beautiful, peaceful, happy, healthy and loving?
So it must be the government that's causing all these people to break the law, rob and rape, pillage and murder?

Is there science to support that theory?

No, sorry, you probably meant the part about you knowing nothing and your philosophy being silly.

I think you addressed this towards Josh? I don't want to end the government at all... as I said I would like to extend some things the government does such as labeling.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #12 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 8:27am
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Liberalterian wrote on Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:18pm:
I think you addressed this towards Josh? I don't want to end the government at all... as I said I would like to extend some things the government does such as labeling.

No, as far as the knowing nothing and having a silly (actually dangerous) philosophy, I was talking to you.

Product labeling. That's an important issue.
How many regulations already address it?
How many executive branch unelected bureaucrats are working with big company lobbyists to write new labeling regulations that will help restrict new entry competition?
What are the current economic costs v the supposed benefits?
What in our country has measurably improved since we started requiring product labels?

I'd rather talk about government that has grown beyond it's bounds.
Did you know that the federal government currently funds more than 2,200 subsidy and benefit programs? Who's keeping tabs on all these programs, you know, so hundreds of billions of tax dollars/year won't be lost to waste, fraud and abuse?
Making people poorer is bad for their health and well being.
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #13 - Apr 3rd, 2014 at 4:43pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 8:27am:
No, as far as the knowing nothing and having a silly (actually dangerous) philosophy, I was talking to you.

Product labeling. That's an important issue.
How many regulations already address it?
How many executive branch unelected bureaucrats are working with big company lobbyists to write new labeling regulations that will help restrict new entry competition?
What are the current economic costs v the supposed benefits?
What in our country has measurably improved since we started requiring product labels?

I'd rather talk about government that has grown beyond it's bounds.
Did you know that the federal government currently funds more than 2,200 subsidy and benefit programs? Who's keeping tabs on all these programs, you know, so hundreds of billions of tax dollars/year won't be lost to waste, fraud and abuse?
Making people poorer is bad for their health and well being.

Ad Hominem clearly shows you are of much higher intellect.

As for those lobbyists. Just have very clear labeling. It's not difficult at all. For Food You have to put:
A) What ingredients are in the product
B) Are any ingredients GMO
C) What is the nutrition information (calories, fat, etc.)

Everything has improved. If you want to eat something but you're also conscious of how many calories you eat or you have diabetes and want to keep track of your sugar intake then you actually have the freedom to do so. You can keep track of how many calories you eat and keep your sugar intake at a low amount (important for someone who has diabetes).

As for this part, we agree on this 100% so I don't see why you view me as hostile to you or not libertarian. I am 100% opposed to ALL Corporate Welfare. Regardless of what it is. I am also 100% opposed to special tax benefits for one company but not for others. Have a simplified tax code (be it Income or Fair Tax or whatever) and treat everyone equally. What's dangerous about that philosophy and how is it different from your own?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #14 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:01am
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Liberalterian wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 4:43pm:
Everything has improved. If you want to eat something but you're also conscious of how many calories you eat or you have diabetes and want to keep track of your sugar intake then you actually have the freedom to do so. You can keep track of how many calories you eat and keep your sugar intake at a low amount (important for someone who has diabetes).


People were able to manage diabetes before food labeling was mandated, simply because people knew cake and cookies and pies and sweet snacks contained lots of sugar.
People have known for centuries (millenia?) that sitting around and eating (it used to be called gluttony) would cause most people to gain weight.
Virtually everybody in the U.S. knows that most fast foods aren't particularly healthy, and they knew that before labeling.
Balance and moderation weren't discovered by 'progressive' scientists funded by taxpayers money.

Your contention is that general health and nutrition is better in the U.S. since labeling was required, and that labeling is the reason?
I'd say instead that more people have more money (on average) which makes it possible for them to buy more of the huge variety of food which free markets have made available everywhere, all year round. Labeling just makes food more expensive, which is counterproductive for good nutrition.

BTW, regulation is a form of corporate welfare, since it most often is used to protect big corporations from competition.

"Progressive" philosophy is dangerous when it's applied. History shows that quite clearly.

Libertarian philosophy is hugely beneficial when applied, which history also shows quite clearly.

The most fundamental difference between our philosophies is that libertarians view government as a necessary and potentially dangerous agent for protecting liberty, while 'progressives' view government as a positive good that can be used to shape people and society into something 'better'.

I just read today about the FDA requiring, in 2011, that an FDA inspector be placed in every catfish processing plant in the U.S.
Was there a problem? Well, once in the past 20 years, a case of botulism was attributed to catfish. Once. In 20 years.
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #15 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 11:49am
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Meh, I like being able to see what the hell I am about to eat. I like being able to see how many calories are in it. I really don't see ANY benefit to getting rid of labeling for nutrition facts and I don't see how it negatively effects ANYONE. Just put: This has so and so many calories and here's the ingredients. Very simple and no one is harmed whatsoever, instead consumers are empowered and know exactly what it is they are buying.

How can you say I made a decision to buy something when I don't know what the hell I am buying? Sure, candy and cakes have a lot of calories. But how many? I am shocked at the amount of sugar and fat in some foods! What labeling allows is it gives customers the ability to truly decide what they want to buy.

Let's say I can either get this cake or that cake. I don't have a preference. Then I see that one of the cakes has TWICE the amount of sugar than the other one. Isn't it VERY empowering that now I can choose to buy the lower calorie cake instead? The one with LESS sugar? Thus decreasing my risk of getting diabetes and a plethora of other health conditions? How is this not clearly a GREAT regulation to have? People shouldn't have the ability to compare two products?

Another example: I had NO idea that Orange Juice by minute maid (just a small one serving bottle) had in the area of 50 GRAMS OF SUGAR. That's INSANE. Now imagine if I didn't have labeling, I would think "Oh orange juice! How healthy!" and get it every day. Then I am surprised why I am ballooning in weight and have diabetes. Instead with labeling I can see "Wow I am NOT getting this EVER. Instead I'll buy from this competitor who has 30 grams of sugar in the orange juice."

See how empowering this is to consumers? Why do you want consumers to be making decisions without having half of the information they need to make the decision? Why don't you want consumers to be able to compare products and buy the one that they find is best for them?

And no, Corporate Welfare is money handed to corporations. Sure some regulations are ridiculous but consumers have a right to know what the hell they are about to put into their body. They have a right to know what all is in it and they have a right to compare and contrast. If a competitor can't compete because his product is Calorific then guess what? That's GREAT because now he'll change the product to better fit the demands of customers, isn't that great for all parties?
  
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Liberalterian
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #16 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 11:55am
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As for progressive ideology making people better and such. That's not at all what I am proposing. If people have access to nutrition information and they ignore it or don't care then that's fine. Let's say someone chooses to eat something that's very unhealthy. So long as they have all the information about the product then this is their right to do so.

AKA, I don't want to ban ANY products. I also don't want to raise some BS extra special tax on "unhealthy" products like progressives want. Instead I simply want people to know what they are buying and eating. That's it. Nothing progressive or forceful about that. You want to eat unhealthy? Go ahead, this is your decision just as it is my decision to eat healthy.
  
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Josh
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #17 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 12:23pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 11:49am:
Meh, I like being able to see what the hell I am about to eat. I like being able to see how many calories are in it.

Personal preference of one individual ≠ grounds for violent mandates
  

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Liberalterian
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #18 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 2:14pm
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Josh wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 12:23pm:
Personal preference of one individual ≠ grounds for violent mandates

I disagree.

Can you at least agree that if you asked the company they should be forced to tell you how many calories are in it or AT LEAST if there's something like MSG in it which could be allergic to people? Or is this too an infraction on the "liberty" to get very sick and perhaps die?

In any case, if you don't like it simply don't sell your products in the United States. Sell them in Turkey, there's virtually no regulations there whatsoever beyond a basic bribe that you pay to the government officials. Fair enough?
  
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Josh
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Re: Alright, so I admit...
Reply #19 - Apr 4th, 2014 at 2:56pm
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Liberalterian wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 2:14pm:
I disagree.

Actually you do agree -- just not when it comes to your personal preference. Please explain how your magical opinion is above everyone else's, Almighty.
  

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