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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Revolutions (Read 1778 times)
Jeff
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Revolutions
Apr 6th, 2014 at 2:38pm
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I was sitting on my porch enjoying a beautifuol spring afternoon and thinking about economies on a national and world level, and France came to mind.

They're not doing well, and there is historical precedent for the French having revolutionary thoughts when times get too bad, and sometimes carrying them through into action. That made me think of the root cause of revolutions in general.

Isn't it  usually people saying they've had enough of being exploited by the government?

Since  I was letting my mind wander, I thought next of the results of revolutions. The only one I could think of that came out well was ours.

I think this is because we were fortunate to have an exceptional group of men who took the time to design a very workable plan that was supposed to ensure that the people would never be exploited by government again. Our Constitution is designed to do that.

What good is a revolution if you just trade one set of exploiters for another? That's been the result of every revolution except the American Revolution.

I think we're discovering that failing to follow the Constitution has us back in the position of being exploited by government. What do you think?
  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #1 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:20pm
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I would identify two reasons for revolution.

The first is sort of mentioned but I'd call it the "tyranny of government" as opposed to the "exploitation by government" although both could occur. Generally it's the tyranny though IMO that is the driver. As noted though rarely does a non-tyrannical government replace a tyrannical government. Cuba and Iran both come instantly to mind. The people in both nations were subjected to tyranny under Batista and the Shah respectively and they were overthrown and new tyranny was imposed.

The next is where I'd really address "exploitation" of the people by a wealthy "upper class" in the nation. This can happen because the "wealthy" control the government which would apply to the "tyranny of government" but they don't have too. If all of the wealth being created is being funneled to the wealthy driving the vast majority into poverty then the poor will eventually revolt.

To some a degree these overlap and I've tried to express that but they are two different threats. Perhaps this would be addressed as "government v economic" and either can be the root cause of revolution or both combined can lead to revolution.

I don't see the "government" being much of a concern in the United States today but I do see an "economic" threat because of the widening gap between the wealthy that are getting richer while virtually everyone else is getting poorer based upon all of the evidence I've seen.


  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #2 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:23pm
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BTW - Great topic for discussion Jeff.
  
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Josh
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #3 - Apr 6th, 2014 at 5:32pm
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There's no point in a revolution if you simply replace the state with another state. It's just going to grow back into what you had before if not worse. See: history.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #4 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:24pm
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Shiva_TD wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:20pm:
I would identify two reasons for revolution.

The first is sort of mentioned but I'd call it the "tyranny of government" as opposed to the "exploitation by government" although both could occur. Generally it's the tyranny though IMO that is the driver. As noted though rarely does a non-tyrannical government replace a tyrannical government. Cuba and Iran both come instantly to mind. The people in both nations were subjected to tyranny under Batista and the Shah respectively and they were overthrown and new tyranny was imposed.

The next is where I'd really address "exploitation" of the people by a wealthy "upper class" in the nation. This can happen because the "wealthy" control the government which would apply to the "tyranny of government" but they don't have too. If all of the wealth being created is being funneled to the wealthy driving the vast majority into poverty then the poor will eventually revolt.

To some a degree these overlap and I've tried to express that but they are two different threats. Perhaps this would be addressed as "government v economic" and either can be the root cause of revolution or both combined can lead to revolution.

I don't see the "government" being much of a concern in the United States today but I do see an "economic" threat because of the widening gap between the wealthy that are getting richer while virtually everyone else is getting poorer based upon all of the evidence I've seen.



Is it possible to funnel created wealth to just a few people without using the power of government?
The only monopolies that I know of were created and sustained by governments.
Certainly there are people who, at times, usually because they were creative and innovative, and yes sometimes ruthless too, looked like they had some part of the economy captured as their monopoly, but the nature of a free market (even just a mostly free market) is such that competition will arise, no monopoly will be sustainable, and consumers, society in general will benefit from the competition.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #5 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:27pm
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Josh wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 5:32pm:
There's no point in a revolution if you simply replace the state with another state. It's just going to grow back into what you had before if not worse. See: history.

Revolutions have often resulted in anarchy, which is always ripe for plucking by groups of organized thugs/barbarians.
It's a good reason to have a plan like our Constitution, or at least to not destroy all instruments of civil society during your revolution.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #6 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:30pm
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Shiva_TD wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:23pm:
BTW - Great topic for discussion Jeff.

I'd enjoy having you participate. I always want to know more about 'progressive' revolution. More than really vague things like "Hope" and "Change" and "Forward".
You recently mention moving "forward" in another thread.
Forward to what? Anarchy? Another type of government? Stalinism?
  
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Josh
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #7 - Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:08pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 6:27pm:
Revolutions have often resulted in anarchy, which is always ripe for plucking by groups of organized thugs/barbarians.

Citation, please.

(Hint: you won't find one because that's a completely fabricated statement.)
  

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Jeff
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #8 - Apr 8th, 2014 at 8:45am
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Josh wrote on Apr 7th, 2014 at 7:08pm:
Citation, please.

(Hint: you won't find one because that's a completely fabricated statement.)

The French Revolution of 1789.
The Russian Revolution of 1917.
  
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Josh
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Re: Revolutions
Reply #9 - Apr 8th, 2014 at 10:44am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 8:45am:
The French Revolution of 1789.

http://wps.ablongman.com/long_kishlansky_cw_5/0,6472,269723-,00.html
Quote:
The Russian Revolution of 1917.

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Russian_Revolution_(1917)....

What anarchism are you talking about?
  

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