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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs! (Read 2407 times)
Nate
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #20 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 2:24pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 15th, 2014 at 9:22am:
I said the market for labor will work "less well" if it is controlled by government.

As I've said before, in a free market, there are fluctuations in prices, including the price paid for labor. Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down.

Controlling immigration will have effects, and the short term effects might look very good for domestic labor, but, it's very obvious that the long term effects of government intervention in markets are bad effects.

Markets adjust to changing conditions, often by having very bad short term effects on people. Trying to prevent these short term bad effects has even worse long term effects, and they are widespread, often systemic.


I think we're pretty much in agreement here. The only difference is I would encouraging you to examine how wages over time will, in effect, rise in a free market system. The wages that people are paid command more resources as productivity and capital increase, so standards of living over time will rise.

All of the rest I agree with, and I agreed with it when I started this thread. As I've said numerous times, I was just curious if anyone knew of any sources which specifically dealt with the claim that low-skilled American laborers would face a decrease in wages; I think everyone here would accept in the long term that this would be good.
  
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Jeff
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #21 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 4:27pm
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Nate wrote on Apr 15th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
I think we're pretty much in agreement here. The only difference is I would encouraging you to examine how wages over time will, in effect, rise in a free market system. The wages that people are paid command more resources as productivity and capital increase, so standards of living over time will rise.

All of the rest I agree with, and I agreed with it when I started this thread. As I've said numerous times, I was just curious if anyone knew of any sources which specifically dealt with the claim that low-skilled American laborers would face a decrease in wages; I think everyone here would accept in the long term that this would be good.

That's what I said. Government intervention has bad effects over the long term. That implies that a free market will do well over the long term.
  
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Nate
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #22 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 6:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 15th, 2014 at 4:27pm:
That's what I said. Government intervention has bad effects over the long term. That implies that a free market will do well over the long term.


Yeah, we're in complete agreement here like I've said multiple times. What I'm saying is that you appeared to have had vague notions that a free market in labor would be better because wages would be lower which would make it "function more efficiently" or something. I was just encouraging you to explore that more thoroughly; the reason free markets are good with respect to labor is because real wages increase over time with a free market due to increased capital investment and increased productivity.

Again, from the start of this thread I understood that free markets would be best for labor. I was asking if anyone knew of any works by economists dealing specifically with the claim I've mentioned multiple times. No one here is refuting that free markets would be better in the long term.
  
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #23 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 8:56am
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Nate wrote on Apr 15th, 2014 at 6:27pm:
Yeah, we're in complete agreement here like I've said multiple times. What I'm saying is that you appeared to have had vague notions that a free market in labor would be better because wages would be lower which would make it "function more efficiently" or something. I was just encouraging you to explore that more thoroughly; the reason free markets are good with respect to labor is because real wages increase over time with a free market due to increased capital investment and increased productivity.

Again, from the start of this thread I understood that free markets would be best for labor. I was asking if anyone knew of any works by economists dealing specifically with the claim I've mentioned multiple times. No one here is refuting that free markets would be better in the long term.


Yes, very good. I hope you've had a chance to explore the CATO Institute site, where, as I said, there are good scholarly studies on the economics of immigration. They've been publishing them for many years.
  
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Nate
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #24 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 6:02pm
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I've been reading stuff from CATO for years now, but thanks.
  
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #25 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 9:20am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 15th, 2014 at 4:27pm:
Government intervention has bad effects over the long term. That implies that a free market will do well over the long term.


While generally speaking much of what government has done through economic interventionism has had negative results that is not always the case. It has also had positive effects as well. I'd draw the line between interventionism to determine economic outcomes and regulations to protect the Rights of the People.

Just because government interventionism to determine economic outcomes has yielded negative results doesn't imply that unregulated free markets where the Rights of the Person are not protected are better. A "free market" does require government interventionism to protect the Rights of the Person.

My point being there is a balance.


  
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Shiva_TD
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #26 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 9:28am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 16th, 2014 at 8:56am:
Yes, very good. I hope you've had a chance to explore the CATO Institute site, where, as I said, there are good scholarly studies on the economics of immigration. They've been publishing them for many years.


The CATO does provide many valuable studies but it is also politically slanted in many respects as well. It's not like it's an unbiased source of information.

Regardless of what the CATO Institute or any other institute states laws that limit or prohibit immigration for peaceful purposes violates the Inalienable Right of Liberty of the Person. The discussion isn't about "economics" but intead it's about the Right of Liberty of the Person.
  
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #27 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 11:30am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Apr 17th, 2014 at 9:20am:
While generally speaking much of what government has done through economic interventionism has had negative results that is not always the case. It has also had positive effects as well. I'd draw the line between interventionism to determine economic outcomes and regulations to protect the Rights of the People.

Just because government interventionism to determine economic outcomes has yielded negative results doesn't imply that unregulated free markets where the Rights of the Person are not protected are better. A "free market" does require government interventionism to protect the Rights of the Person.

My point being there is a balance.



Peoples' Rights are protected by a government which has strictly limited power, and no authority to act in ways that would abridge or deny Rights.
Governments are deniers of Rights.
Individuals commit crimes against others.

Equality under the law, protection of property and the Right of contract are essential parts of protecting economic rights. To be free includes the right to have economic freedom, which comes with the responsibility to pay a price for using force or fraud to deny others their rights to property and economic freedom.

It's the law that provides the protection. Regulations are an abridgement of economic freedom, as well as being unconstitutional, not having been passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.

I know, the Supreme Court said regulations are law, but the Constitution says only Congress has legislative power.
Who's right, the Constitution or the Supreme Court?
Is this one of those times you say the S.Ct. has 'interpreted' the Constitution to clarify it's true meaning?
  
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #28 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 11:34am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Apr 17th, 2014 at 9:28am:
The CATO does provide many valuable studies but it is also politically slanted in many respects as well. It's not like it's an unbiased source of information.

Regardless of what the CATO Institute or any other institute states laws that limit or prohibit immigration for peaceful purposes violates the Inalienable Right of Liberty of the Person. The discussion isn't about "economics" but intead it's about the Right of Liberty of the Person.

Yes, the CATO Institute is very strongly libertarian. People visiting this libertarian forum should be forewarned!

So, you're saying no nation has any right to control, in any way, who comes across it's borders?

Anarchists like that idea.
"Progressive" one world government advocates like it too.

  
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Nate
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Re: "Libertarian" Economic Treatment of Labor? Immigrants stealing jobs!
Reply #29 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 11:47am
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Shiva_TD wrote on Apr 17th, 2014 at 9:20am:
While generally speaking much of what government has done through economic interventionism has had negative results that is not always the case. It has also had positive effects as well. I'd draw the line between interventionism to determine economic outcomes and regulations to protect the Rights of the People.

Just because government interventionism to determine economic outcomes has yielded negative results doesn't imply that unregulated free markets where the Rights of the Person are not protected are better. A "free market" does require government interventionism to protect the Rights of the Person.

My point being there is a balance.




Do you have anything to substantiate this, or do you really feel justified in just making a series of assertions and calling it an argument?
  
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