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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to make decisions (Read 7559 times)
pjkon
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #10 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 8:47am
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JW wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 10:12pm:
Let's say we make a utopian retirement community, or maybe Porcfest or libertopia event planning organization.

A group of people, who all claim to be libertarians, agree to operate solely by libertarian principles.

Unexpectedly, one person says another person violated NAP, and strikes back, injuring the first person slightly.  It is necessary for the community to agree on which of the two people are at fault for the purpose of throwing one of them out of the community as punishment (?)

A judge might be appointed, but since we don't believe in democracy, we don't vote on a judge.  It would be totalitarian for one person to appoint another person as a judge.  How does a community decide a case.  Or should the community as a whole make a decision without subjecting one of the other parties to an unwanted intrusion of personhood?

And since someone mentioned "it's all in the books", can you point me to where this is covered?  I've been reading Nozick's Anarchy, State and Utopia, but haven't found my answer there.


My response to this would be that any method of adjudicating such disputes would be perfectly fine as long as all parties to the dispute had agreed on the arbitration mechanism before hand.  It would be possible for instance to make membership in this group you are discussing contingent upon the acceptance of arbitration by some judge or jury, or set of either, or bureaucracy.  The wisdom of any such system would be up for debate, but its compliance with the NAP would not be.

The private court solution would be a way to deal with the problem if none of the measures taken above were used.  I do think it has problems, but I don't think the criminal law problem is one of them.  Setting the protection agency's financial interest in line with the victim's interest in justice could be done with the modern device of contingency fees.  My two problems with private courts are more along the lines of 1) Private Courts with powerful enforcement mechanisms might try to usurp authority not legitimately theirs (but this is common to all dispute resolution systems which employ any force at all and is not unique to private courts) and 2) their probable inability to deal with organized violent opposition, as the military defense of a dispersed group of policy holders would be extremely difficult, and paying tribute to extortionists much cheaper.
  
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pjkon
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #11 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 8:50am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 24th, 2014 at 5:56pm:
Were you high when you wrote this? Stoned out of your mind? That might not be up to date terminology, but I'll clarify if anybody doesn't understand.


Can you please stop randomly insulting people you disagree with?  If you think the question is nonsensical explain why.  We're libertarians, we're supposed to be logical.  These constant ad-homonyms you use are detrimental to any logic already existing in the debate and add none to it.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #12 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 3:52pm
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Alan Jones wrote on Aug 25th, 2014 at 2:56am:
Wow, does that mean that my Leo Sayer karaoke club constitutes an oligarchy?

Almost all private organizations that have employees satisfy the definition of an "oligarchy".

Libertarians need to stop freaking out over terms like "democracy" and "totalitarian".

The nature of your control of your own property satisfies the
definition of "totalitarian".

The process by which essentially all businesses and most not-for-profit orgs make decisions satisfies the definition of "democracy".

Terms like monarchy, oligarchy, democracy, totalitarian are only bad when applied to the State. That's because the terms themselves aren't bad: what's actually bad is the State.
  
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Alan Jones
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #13 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 5:05pm
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Almost all private organizations that have employees satisfy the definition of an "oligarchy".

Nonsense, none of them do. An oligarchy is "a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few". It's not a type of private organization.

Quote:
Libertarians need to stop freaking out over terms like "democracy" and "totalitarian".

The nature of your control of your own property satisfies the
definition of "totalitarian".

The process by which essentially all businesses and most not-for-profit orgs make decisions satisfies the definition of "democracy".

Terms like monarchy, oligarchy, democracy, totalitarian are only bad when applied to the State. That's because the terms themselves aren't bad: what's actually bad is the State.

Complete bunk. Each of those terms refers to a type of state, so they are only coherently used when applied to a state.

Seriously, you don't even have to buy a dictionary: there are several available free online to help you avoid such embarrassing errors.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #14 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 6:59pm
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First, many private organizations have governments. That's because a body that governs is a government.

Second, I can't help it if you don't understand the difference between a "type of state" and a "type of government". My church, for example has a "democratic government" but is not a state. My employer has an "oligarchical government" but is not a state. Et cetera.

Please rate your level of amusement, 1-5, where 1 = not amused, 5 = extremely amused. Everyone is dying to know, especially Jeff.
  
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JW
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #15 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 11:51pm
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Terms like monarchy, oligarchy, democracy, totalitarian are only bad when applied to the State. That's because the terms themselves aren't bad: what's actually bad is the State.


What's the difference between a condo-association and a State (meaning Country)?  Both have voluntary association (vote with your feet), taxes/fees, rules, a governing body, and a discipline system.  Laguna Woods has 16,000 people, and Tuvalu has 11,000 people.  What makes one a Country and the other a condo association?

I can't see that a corporate structure, or a neighborhood board, or a city, county, state or region is any different in government structure than a Country (which we call a state). 

Maybe I'm just confused.  Been reading Plato's Republic this week.
  
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Alan Jones
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #16 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 2:23pm
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Quote:
First, many private organizations have governments. That's because a body that governs is a government.

Second, I can't help it if you don't understand the difference between a "type of state" and a "type of government". My church, for example has a "democratic government" but is not a state. My employer has an "oligarchical government" but is not a state. Et cetera.

Please rate your level of amusement, 1-5, where 1 = not amused, 5 = extremely amused. Everyone is dying to know, especially Jeff.

I'd rate it about a 4 in this case, considering the fact that, while not always the case, in that context the term "government" is a synonym for "state". Yep, a solid 4 at least.  Roll Eyes
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #17 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:13pm
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JW wrote on Aug 25th, 2014 at 11:51pm:
What's the difference between a condo-association and a State (meaning Country)?

The difference is whether the organization exerts force over property it doesn't actually own. That is, whether it acts like it owns property that it doesn't actually own.

The bottom line, of course, is that some governments initiate force. Some don't, and we need terms to distinguish between them. Almost everyone associates "the State" with the former. But there is of course nothing inherent in the term "government" to imply the initiation of force, just as there is no aggression inherent in terms like "oligarchy", "democracy", "monarchy" or "totalitarian".

Alan Jones wrote on Aug 26th, 2014 at 2:23pm:
I'd rate it about a 4 in this case, considering the fact that, while not always the case, in that context the term "government" is a synonym for "state". Yep, a solid 4 at least.  Roll Eyes

Oh really? I'm so interested, tell me more.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #18 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:22pm
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The bottom line, of course, is that some governments initiate force. Some don't, and we need terms to distinguish between them.

The delineation was made more than 200 years ago, and the terms are well known.
Tyrannical governments, which are always Sovereign, routinely act aggressively toward their subjects (peons or serfs or whatever).
Constitutionally limited governments, where the people are Sovereign, are not given the power to act tyrannically, so they can't, unless they usurp power and overthrow the Constitution that governs them.
  

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Dissident Right
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #19 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:30pm
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Which would be like a system of classification for vehicles that ignores vehicles with four tires.

Proctor and Gamble and millions of other private businesses have governments that are both Sovereign, constitutionally limited, and either democratic, monarchical, or oligarchical--yet they don't initiate force, ever.
  
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