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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to make decisions (Read 7560 times)
Jeff
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #50 - Aug 31st, 2014 at 8:08pm
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pjkon wrote on Aug 31st, 2014 at 6:36pm:
This is why I could not make sense of your comment.  Very well, I change "rule" to "govern." In my previous comment.  What I mean for operational purposes is "tax."

If you're talking about taxation, don't say "rule" or "govern" either, just say tax.

The government created by our Constitution gives the government the power to tax, with some serious limitations, but no power to either "rule" or "govern". On the contrary, the government is given the responsibility of preserving the lives, liberty and property of the people it serves.
Constitutional U.S. government serves the cause of liberty. Free citizens govern themselves.
  

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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #51 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 7:42am
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Only in Jeff's personal insane asylum can a government "tax" you without "ruling" or "governing" you.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #52 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:02am
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Only in Jeff's personal insane asylum can a government "tax" you without "ruling" or "governing" you.

In the U.S., under our Constitution, the government is created to serve the cause of individual liberty, to protect lives and property, and, it's granted a limited power to tax. There is no power granted by our Constitution to "rule" or to "govern". It's a government that may tax but isn't permitted to govern. Free people are expected to govern themselves.
It's not something I thought up, just something I read about.
  

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pjkon
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #53 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:17am
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VERY WELL!  Minarchists think that the majority of people in a given land area can decide which minarchist government may TAX them, and also require them to serve on juries, and arrest them until trial if they are accused of a crime, and decide which foreigners that they may trade with, and do all of those other non-ruling things which the constitution permits.  Happy?
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #54 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:29am
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pjkon wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:17am:
VERY WELL!  Minarchists think that the majority of people in a given land area can decide which minarchist government may TAX them, and also require them to serve on juries, and arrest them until trial if they are accused of a crime, and decide which foreigners that they may trade with, and do all of those other non-ruling things which the constitution permits.  Happy?

Not quite. We didn't grant them any power to decide who we can or can't trade with. But it is nice to see that you realize that things like enforcement of the law in order to protect lives, liberty and property isn't "governing".
Lots of people still consider it a civic duty to serve on a jury, something civilized people do willingly in order to preserve civilization, as well as to make sure the police powers of government aren't misused. Juries are a protection of liberty demanded by free people.
  

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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #55 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:45am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:29am:
Not quite. We didn't grant them any power to decide who we can or can't trade with. But it is nice to see that you realize that things like enforcement of the law in order to protect lives, liberty and property isn't "governing".
Lots of people still consider it a civic duty to serve on a jury, something civilized people do willingly in order to preserve civilization, as well as to make sure the police powers of government aren't misused. Juries are a protection of liberty demanded by free people.


"To regulate Commerce among the several states, and with foreign nations, and with the Indian tribes."

This can't mean anything but the power to limit, in some fashion, trade with foreigners.

Just to be clear, I do not think that requiring jury duty of people is a bad thing, and we would need something like that (some group of people to render decisions on innocence or guilt) under any just system.  I'm just pointing out the different things which go with a minarchist government and why I could not just use the word tax despite it being the most important of the several items.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #56 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 9:46am
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pjkon wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 8:45am:
"To regulate Commerce among the several states, and with foreign nations, and with the Indian tribes."

This can't mean anything but the power to limit, in some fashion, trade with foreigners.

Just to be clear, I do not think that requiring jury duty of people is a bad thing, and we would need something like that (some group of people to render decisions on innocence or guilt) under any just system.  I'm just pointing out the different things which go with a minarchist government and why I could not just use the word tax despite it being the most important of the several items.

We've been through this before. The power to "regulate" commerce is not a general power to control our economy. It's a duty to make sure that commerce is not hindered or impeded, for instance by States deciding what can or can't be sold in their territory, or States erecting internal tariffs or other barriers to free trade. "Regulate" as it's used in the commerce clause means to make regular, to keep in good working order, to make sure our economy is free.

The most important function of government is to protect lives, liberty and property. Our Constitution is a good plan for doing just that. Taxation is a necessary evil that allows our government to operate in order to ensure individual rights and individual liberty. Taxation is a means to an end. The most important thing about taxation is that it not be allowed to be used as a political tool, that's why the Constitution limits the taxing power so severely.

Juries don't just render decisions about innocence or guilt.  Juries make decisions about the validity of laws. Juries arose in England as a bulwark against the unbridled power of the King, to ensure that no unjust law would be enforced. That power is carried over to juries in the U.S.
  

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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #57 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 2:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 9:46am:
We've been through this before. The power to "regulate" commerce is not a general power to control our economy. It's a duty to make sure that commerce is not hindered or impeded, for instance by States deciding what can or can't be sold in their territory, or States erecting internal tariffs or other barriers to free trade. "Regulate" as it's used in the commerce clause means to make regular, to keep in good working order, to make sure our economy is free.

Commerce is by its nature free.  We do not need a Federal government to create that situation.  If those who wrote the constitution merely intended to prohibit internal tariffs and  trade barriers it would have been simpler to write "no state shall erect any internal tariff or other barrier to internal trade," and they would not have written a power for the federal government in such a manner as they did.

I did not , and for clarification do not and never will claim that the interstate commerce clause allows the government to control any aspect of the economy which does not involve shipping products across state lines.

I apologize if you addressed this point before and I did not respond.


The most important function of government is to protect lives, liberty and property. Our Constitution is a good plan for doing just that. Taxation is a necessary evil agreedthat allows our government to operate in order to ensure individual rights and individual liberty. Taxation is a means to an end. The most important thing about taxation is that it not be allowed to be used as a political tool, that's why the Constitution limits the taxing power so severely.A pity those limits were never followed.

Juries don't just render decisions about innocence or guilt.  Juries make decisions about the validity of laws. Juries arose in England as a bulwark against the unbridled power of the King, to ensure that no unjust law would be enforced. That power is carried over to juries in the U.S.
True, I was merely remarking on the one aspect of juries which is utterly indespensible

  
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Jeff
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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #58 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 3:41pm
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"Commerce is by its nature free.  We do not need a Federal government to create that situation."

We have a "Federal" government that is interfering with almost the totality of our economy. Vast segments of our economy are under almost total control of the government. Commerce would be free, if governments wouldn't rule over it.
  

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Re: How to make decisions
Reply #59 - Sep 1st, 2014 at 4:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 3:41pm:
"Commerce is by its nature free.  We do not need a Federal government to create that situation."

We have a "Federal" government that is interfering with almost the totality of our economy. Vast segments of our economy are under almost total control of the government. Commerce would be free, if governments wouldn't rule over it.


I agree with you.  Surely you don't think that this is the natural state on commerce though...which means you agree with my nature of commerce statement right?
  
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