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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay? (Read 2824 times)
JW
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #10 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 11:17pm
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Great thread.  I spent Saturday in "Traffic School" getting a ticket wiped off.  Main lesson, your neck is important so take care of it.   Being a C5 quad means a lifetime of disability, and it doesn't take much to break a vertebra, a 25 mph rear ending, or failure to buckle up in a parking lot.  It brought me thinking about the libertarian view of personal responsibility in terms of one stupid mistake ending in a lifetime of disability and medical care.  I wonder how Rothbard would care for someone who crashed and became a c5 quad (on your own, should have had insurance) or his wife (the state should assist in her care).

Full disclosure I have been 12 stepping 3 years now, and no longer drink. In my meeting I hear enough stories about DUI's to curl your toes.  Driving drunk was not a big part of my story, but I did it a few times but I was a stay at home drinker.  The times I did it were less a decision to drive, as much as a compulsion to complete a task (go home, go to work, or pick up more booze) while misunderestimating <g> the amount of alcohol in my system.  A compulsion and a mistake, not a decision to do an unsafe act.

It is totally useless to say that someone can pay for the damage they do.  People who get DUI's generally lack money or resources to pay.  If they take your life, how will a tort system return your life to you?  If they take your spouse, is $10 million dollars really a replacement?  In my Saturday traffic school, there were two quadraplegics who spoke and a couple other brain-damaged people.  Out of five, only one got a settlement large enough to clear the lawyers and hospital bills (yes, the hospital is in line ahead of you, and so are your doctors).  That one, a young man, soon met a lovely young girl who married him, cleaned out his accounts and disappeared leaving him dead broke with a lifetime of (insurance pool paid) surgeries ahead.  Another small mistake.

Who here drives faster than the speed limit?  Do you really think people who exceed traffic laws should be shot?  What about rolling through a stop sign?  What about sneaking through the yellow light?  Didn't Heinlein write a short story about someone who blows a red light and gets executed by the robocop for it?  Doesn't killing someone for a traffic infraction imply a socialist state, Jeff? 

I learned on Saturday that you can get a DUI in my state for just .01 alcohol if you fail a field sobriety test.  It's below the legal limit, but the test is about your acuity, not your BAC.  A quick google search says this is what both Cato and Von Mises advocates; not a DUI based on your BAC, but a DUI based on impaired ability.  Does that mean I live in a libertarian state? 

A DUI in my state is harsh, $10k fines and legal fees, 90 day suspension, 90 hours of treatment you get to pay for, and months of meetings.  It's the meetings where I get to meet those fine folks as I handle my own program.  At least meetings are free, so maybe that's why they call it the easier softer way.  Hardly any of the DUI folks stay sober past their court ordered due date.  Sometimes they come back after the next DUI.  That's pretty sad.

I've never seen a private parking lot patrol their roads.  You can drive right through the painted "Stop" sign at Walmart, which can risk a child's life and they won't do a thing.  If someone made a super-safe highway for $2, and next to it was a fast and furious highway for $1.95, and you needed to go from LA to OC (an hour drive) which one would you take?

A tort system implies a government, a Minitarian solution rather than AnCap. I'd still like to hear if AnCap has been tried someplace and how it works.




  
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The Opposition
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #11 - Aug 25th, 2014 at 11:40pm
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JW wrote on Aug 25th, 2014 at 11:17pm:
Who here drives faster than the speed limit?  Do you really think people who exceed traffic laws should be shot?  What about rolling through a stop sign?  What about sneaking through the yellow light?  Didn't Heinlein write a short story about someone who blows a red light and gets executed by the robocop for it?  Doesn't killing someone for a traffic infraction imply a socialist state, Jeff? 

I learned on Saturday that you can get a DUI in my state for just .01 alcohol if you fail a field sobriety test.  It's below the legal limit, but the test is about your acuity, not your BAC.  A quick google search says this is what both Cato and Von Mises advocates; not a DUI based on your BAC, but a DUI based on impaired ability.  Does that mean I live in a libertarian state?


If it's based on impaired ability, then you have a situation wherein all the drunks saying, "I'm a better driver drunk than some people are sober." are absolutely right. If Bob's inability to walk a straight line (because he's drunk) makes him unfit to drive a car, so does Betty's vertigo, or Jim's naturally poor reaction time.

As to that first bit, definitely don't ask me what I think about it.

The "little" laws shouldn't exist. They're only there because so few people do the "big" stuff that our system forces us to criminalise little stuff to rake in ticket money. It's a bad system. If sneaking through the yellow light is really that bad, and that much of a threat, YES HAVE THE ROBOCOP BLOW THEM AWAY FOR IT. If not? Leave it be.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #12 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 4:52pm
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JW wrote on Aug 25th, 2014 at 11:17pm:
Great thread.  I spent Saturday in "Traffic School" getting a ticket wiped off.  Main lesson, your neck is important so take care of it.   Being a C5 quad means a lifetime of disability, and it doesn't take much to break a vertebra, a 25 mph rear ending, or failure to buckle up in a parking lot.  It brought me thinking about the libertarian view of personal responsibility in terms of one stupid mistake ending in a lifetime of disability and medical care.  I wonder how Rothbard would care for someone who crashed and became a c5 quad (on your own, should have had insurance) or his wife (the state should assist in her care).

Personal responsibility doesn't have anything to do with you doing something irresponsible or stupid and hurting yourself, it has to do with you being responsible for the damage you do to others. Rothbard would say exactly that. He would certainly laugh at your talk about the state being obligated to assist the wife of a disabled person. That's a state socialist 'welfare' wealth redistribution idea, all anathema to Rothbard, and to libertarians in general.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #13 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:17pm
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Surely you're not conceding that the veritable godfather of anarchism is a libertarian.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #14 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:30pm
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Surely you're not conceding that the veritable godfather of anarchism is a libertarian.

No, I think I was saying that you're a vile contemptible weasel.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #15 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:35pm
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Calling names when your obvious hypocrisy is noticed? About as normal as crying when you get punched in the stomach.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #16 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:40pm
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Calling names when your obvious hypocrisy is noticed? About as normal as crying when you get punched in the stomach.

Do we have to go back to basics, again?
An-cap is a sub-set of libertarian thought in general. Some libertarians are anarchists. Being an anarchist doesn't prevent you from being a libertarian, but it doesn't guarantee that you are one either. Some anarchists claim to be 'progressives' too. And no, I don't agree with anarchist libertarians for the same reason I don't agree with communists. The realization of their theories cannot happen in a world full of people.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #17 - Aug 26th, 2014 at 5:43pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 25th, 2014 at 11:40pm:
The "little" laws shouldn't exist. They're only there because so few people do the "big" stuff that our system forces us to criminalise little stuff to rake in ticket money. It's a bad system. If sneaking through the yellow light is really that bad, and that much of a threat, YES HAVE THE ROBOCOP BLOW THEM AWAY FOR IT. If not? Leave it be.

Our common law is exceedingly good at dealing with damages caused by irresponsible behavior. It is a great system of justice, and was even better before 'progressives' started subverting it.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #18 - Aug 27th, 2014 at 2:50pm
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Do you have multiple personality disorder, Jeff? I recall you saying:
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Associating anarchism with liberalism (libertarian) was a huge disservice to the cause of liberty. When Rothbard tried to drag Lysander Spooner into libertarian philosophy, I lost respect for Rothbard. Spooner was laughably far from libertarian.

Don't tell me, you think I'm a vile contemptible weasel. Nobody could have seen that coming.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Drunk Driving in a Libertarian World - Yea or Nay?
Reply #19 - Aug 27th, 2014 at 3:29pm
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Do you have multiple personality disorder, Jeff? I recall you saying:
Don't tell me, you think I'm a vile contemptible weasel. Nobody could have seen that coming.

I don't have respect for any anarchists, isn't that obvious?
I do understand however, that an-cap is accepted as a branch of libertarian theory and speculation. I don't see any inconsistency in these separate lines of the discussion. An-cap speculation certainly isn't 'progressive' or 'right wing', it's a fantasy that results in a perfect libertarian world, just like communist speculation results in a perfect communistic world.
  
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