Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dictatorship of the Proletariat (Read 3067 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41793
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Sep 6th, 2014 at 3:55pm
Print Post  
I remember the term from my time at college in the late '60s and early '70s, when there were Marxists in most all of our colleges. When I thought about it, I decided that I agreed. I find Marx's idea to be analogous to the Founding Fathers idea of a meritocracy of liberty.
The proletariat is nothing more than the collection of productive people, those who are working.
Just as in a Meritocracy of Liberty, the people who are being productive are the people who should be making decisions for the society, at the few times that such decisions need to be made.
Marx' use of the term "dictatorship" is unfortunate, because a society in which the productive make decisions isn't a dictatorship. When it's organized under a system of government like our Constitution, it's a fair and just way of keeping a free and prosperous society.
So why don't we do it? People who aren't being productive are almost half of the population, and that percentage includes all government workers. I don't think anyone is ready to say that all government workers are productive. A lot of them are counterproductive in fact.

Why should people who are not supporting themselves, Why should they get a say on our government? So they can vote for people who say they will give them more and more of what productive people earned. Let's have control of government by productive people, or as Marx said a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat".

Amazing. Something libertarians and 'progressives' can agree on!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Crystallas
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2119
Location: R[̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅]ution
Joined: May 4th, 2011
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #1 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:11am
Print Post  
Libertarianism has no stance on the proletarian and bourgeois. But some individuals that identify themselves as libertarians might(and that distinction can make all the difference in the world). I would be careful not to make blanket generalizations like that. I'll explain why, and it's very simple this time. The individualist naturally does not divide the treatment of fellow man in simple classes. This is collectivism(which is not necessarily a negative trait, but as generalizations, this form of collectivism labeling clouds the details) and it also paints an inaccurate picture of the landscape at hand. The individualist, instead, regards persons individually. The progressive does refer to class identification, and discriminates against the individual.

For someone that makes such claims of age. You sure do post like a millennial, and misconstrue like a millennial. I'm not fooled. /in before he claims I'm trespassing again in another hissy teenage rage/fit.

Something about internet anonymity and starting off things with a lie?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41793
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #2 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:47am
Print Post  
Crystallas wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:11am:
Libertarianism has no stance on the proletarian and bourgeois. But some individuals that identify themselves as libertarians might(and that distinction can make all the difference in the world). I would be careful not to make blanket generalizations like that. I'll explain why, and it's very simple this time. The individualist naturally does not divide the treatment of fellow man in simple classes. This is collectivism(which is not necessarily a negative trait, but as generalizations, this form of collectivism labeling clouds the details) and it also paints an inaccurate picture of the landscape at hand. The individualist, instead, regards persons individually. The progressive does refer to class identification, and discriminates against the individual.

For someone that makes such claims of age. You sure do post like a millennial, and misconstrue like a millennial. I'm not fooled. /in before he claims I'm trespassing again in another hissy teenage rage/fit.

Something about internet anonymity and starting off things with a lie?

I only 'classified' people into two 'groups'; people who are productive and self supporting, and people who are living off the earnings of those productive people. The 'class' of productive people includes people of all races, ages, sexes, ideologies, cultures, etc. It's simply productive individuals, in total. The 'class' of unproductive people also includes individuals from every possible race, culture, religion etc.
Then I drew an simple analogy between Marx's "dictatorship of the proletariat" and the Founders "Meritocracy" to find a commonality- productive people should be the ones who make the few decisions that need to be made that will affect our entire society.
If you disagree, and think that people who are living on the government transferred wealth of the productive should be making decisions that affect those transfers of the wealth, you can explain why.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alan Jones
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2721
Joined: Apr 19th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #3 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 10:18am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 3:55pm:
Marx' use of the term "dictatorship" is unfortunate, because a society in which the productive make decisions isn't a dictatorship. When it's organized under a system of government like our Constitution, it's a fair and just way of keeping a free and prosperous society.

I have to be a smartass and point out that our Constitution was designed in a way that government would have no way to know whether a private citizen was productive or not. How would they? It's not like private charities would send lists.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41793
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #4 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 2:39pm
Print Post  
Alan Jones wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 10:18am:
I have to be a smartass and point out that our Constitution was designed in a way that government would have no way to know whether a private citizen was productive or not. How would they? It's not like private charities would send lists.

Certainly you know that I agree totally. Unfortunately, our government is pretty much ignoring the Constitution, and they do know who the productive people are, they're the ones they get the revenue from.

I'm more interested in knowing if you agree that, in order to preserve a society in which productive work is profitable, (why else would people do it?), the people making societies decisions should be the productive people. It seems to me now that the majority are unproductive, and that the 'majority' is being used to justify ever increasing socialism.
I just had a wild thought the other day, that 'progressives' don't even understand Marx. (Actually, that's not surprising, because Marx doesn't make sense, so can't be understood.)
Marx, despite how utterly wrong he was about economics and the nature of people, had a good idea in theory of government. Productive people should be in charge of decisions that effect society.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9425
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #5 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 4:55pm
Print Post  
Meritocracy is a great idea. In fact, it's my favourite idea. The only unfortunate part is that somebody has to be the one deciding and judging the merit.

In a world with corrupt government, you'd end up only a little better off than we are now, with all the rent-seekers being judged as productive. You would, however, hardly be able to justify hiking taxes for the purposes of kicking farmers off their land, which is now what is done in many cases.

Yes it is dictatorship. It is absolutely dictatorship. The rule of the productive over the non-productive is still rule, no matter how much fairness is intrinsic in that. (The same amount that is in the rule of a parent over a child, whom they provide for.) I'm sorry the word has gotten so soiled.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alan Jones
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2721
Joined: Apr 19th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #6 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:05pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 2:39pm:
Certainly you know that I agree totally. Unfortunately, our government is pretty much ignoring the Constitution, and they do know who the productive people are, they're the ones they get the revenue from.

I'm more interested in knowing if you agree that, in order to preserve a society in which productive work is profitable, (why else would people do it?), the people making societies decisions should be the productive people.

It depends on what decisions you're referring to. If you're referring to legitimate government decisions, then my answer is no. How productive a private citizen is is irrelevant.

If you're referring to private economic decisions, then my answer is yes, but as private individuals, not collectively (through government).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41793
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #7 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:08am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 4:55pm:
Meritocracy is a great idea. In fact, it's my favourite idea. The only unfortunate part is that somebody has to be the one deciding and judging the merit.


Actually it would be very simple and totally fair, that is, not subject to political favoritism at all. People who pay taxes on money they earn get to vote. People who don't earn their own money don't get to vote.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41793
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #8 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:14am
Print Post  
Alan Jones wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:05pm:
It depends on what decisions you're referring to. If you're referring to legitimate government decisions, then my answer is no. How productive a private citizen is is irrelevant.

If you're referring to private economic decisions, then my answer is yes, but as private individuals, not collectively (through government).

If you add the total of government employees to the total of people not working, you get a majority of voters. That majority gets to elect people into government who promise to keep giving them the wealth that others have earned.
We are now living under the dictatorship of the non-productive. The complete opposite of a meritocracy. People who work hard, invest, create, start businesses or do any sort of productive thing that society finds valuable (meaning people will willingly pay for it) is punished every step of the way, including the final step, the fruits of their labor are taken from them and given to the unproductive.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9425
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #9 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:34pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:08am:
Actually it would be very simple and totally fair, that is, not subject to political favoritism at all. People who pay taxes on money they earn get to vote. People who don't earn their own money don't get to vote.


It's a wonderful idea.

What about people who earn money that comes to them through taxes? In other words, bureaucrats. This gets my full support if everyone receiving taxed money is exactly equal, we admit that bureaucrats are welfare recipients, and we don't give them votes either. This would have to extent even to teachers (in our current system) and in fact anyone who works for the government.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy