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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #10 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:34pm:
It's a wonderful idea.

What about people who earn money that comes to them through taxes? In other words, bureaucrats. This gets my full support if everyone receiving taxed money is exactly equal, we admit that bureaucrats are welfare recipients, and we don't give them votes either. This would have to extent even to teachers (in our current system) and in fact anyone who works for the government.

Yes, of course. People who are paid with money taken from productive people may be individually very productive, but the entire process of taking money out of the economy that actually produces wealth, and funneling it through government, is a drain on the production of wealth. So yes, anyone who gets their money solely by having it transferred to them by the government shouldn't vote.
What will they be voting for if they are allowed to vote? More money and benefits for them, transferred from the people who created the wealth, and more government employees to vote for even more wealth transfers, ad infinitum.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #11 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:10am
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Teachers' votes would be an unfortunate casualty of such a system. I understand very well why they are a necessary one - consistency - but I still view it as unfortunate.

Of course it wouldn't be so very unfortunate if we actually had privatised education.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Alan Jones
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #12 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 6:35am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:14am:
If you add the total of government employees to the total of people not working, you get a majority of voters. That majority gets to elect people into government who promise to keep giving them the wealth that others have earned.

Sure, but that's why I separated my answer into two parts, depending on whether the decisions were legitimate government decisions.

If you're asking me who should get to vote as part of an authoritarian welfare state, I have a third answer: nobody.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #13 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:10am:
Teachers' votes would be an unfortunate casualty of such a system. I understand very well why they are a necessary one - consistency - but I still view it as unfortunate.

Of course it wouldn't be so very unfortunate if we actually had privatised education.

Teachers should be employees of local school systems, which wouldn't exclude them from voting in state and national elections.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #14 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 4:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:05am:
Teachers should be employees of local school systems, which wouldn't exclude them from voting in state and national elections.

I don't expect any local governments would prevent teachers from voting in local elections either.
Hey Vexer, what do you think?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #15 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 11:13am
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So, libertarians can agree with a very small part of Marx- Productive people should be making the decisions about who is elected to serve in our national representative body, the House of Representatives. Well, sure, State representative bodies too. And local.
  

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Crystallas
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #16 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 1:07pm
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LOL. The people that come here to debate libertarianism, are the ones you are referencing as libertarians.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #17 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 2:04pm
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Crystallas wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 1:07pm:
LOL. The people that come here to debate libertarianism, are the ones you are referencing as libertarians.


Well, to debate and learn.

I don't think votes are a libertarian concept at all, from what I have learned.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Alan Jones
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #18 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 2:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 2:04pm:
I don't think votes are a libertarian concept at all, from what I have learned.

Sure, votes are a concept, and a completely legitimate way for people to make decisions that are theirs to make. But the fact that a company's decisions are made by votes of its stockholders in no way gives that company any extra rights that its stockholders didn't have already. Voting doesn't magically create rights, or power over others. It's just a way to exercise rights that already exist.

For example, the stockholders of Ford Motor Co. might vote on whether to make a particular car model next year, as a method of exercising rights they already have. Their voting doesn't give them special extra powers to, for example, force me to buy that car against my will.

You've been around here long enough to not be that confused about libertarianism. Are you feigning it?
  
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #19 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 2:41pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 11:13am:
So, libertarians can agree with a very small part of Marx- Productive people should be making the decisions about who is elected to serve in our national representative body, the House of Representatives. Well, sure, State representative bodies too. And local.


Hi. New here but noticed this thread and just have to put my two cents in. I do consider myself "libertarian" in many regaurds, especially when it comes to respect of the individual, individual liberty, and individual rights over collectivism and its claim of being in the best interest of all.

I'll start off and just be blunt- Karl Marx is an asshole. There are literally REAMS upon REAMS of literature and historical documentation, along with the commonly well known FACT of the abject failure -after much suffering of the poeple forcibly yoked to communism- of his ideology world wide.

http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Marx-Vicious-Racist-Anti-Semite/lm/HMOHLDDETEVO

This ideology, might I remind you, is DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY yet clearly supplementary to just about each and every totalitarian dictatorship in the world, and communism as well as socilism has been the premeire choice of gov't guilty of mass crimes against humanity in the past centruy almost to an exclusive point.

And even tho a broken analog clock can be right 2 times a day, I cannot for the life of me fathom anything at all in common with Marx's twisted, sick, collectivist Animal Farm ideology and the ideology of individual liberty of Libertarian.

Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

Lastly, i do not agree with anyone that only certain people should have access to or control of gov't. While i'm certainly not a big fan of "pure" or "Athenian" democracy (nothing but mob rule tyranny), I belive that the concept of limited by law government with democratic process of election of representative gov't and law making WITHIN THE CONFINES of the limitations of law is probably the greatest ideology of governance that has come about since pure Athenian democracy.
In a nutshell, every citizen of a nation should have a vote -a say- in government, but not to elect majorities that then use the gov't to take away the rights of anyone else.


All that "collectivism" and "dictatorship" or giving the vote to only those who pay into gov't (the income tax, BTW, being a progressive socialist invention enacted into "law" by the 16th amendment in 1913 or '14, and certainly -NOT- something the founders came up with) is nothing more then a twist on an age old philosophy- that being the "golden rule- he who has the gold, makes the rules" ideology, in other words- tyranny and opression of some over all.

Thats -not- libertarianism, at least as I know it, at all.

.........and while I'm sure we might be able to come to an agreement that we should not tolerate the wealthy running our lives, I'll not have the mob having any say in how I live my own life either, thank you very much.

In fact, and again to be blunt- you can take any ideology that advocates running my life and shove it right up in your happy place.

At the core of my own being, I realize that I came into this world alone and have, in the grand context of things, only a breif period of lucid conciousness with which to experience life.

i'll be damned if I let some asshole like Marx (or Bush, or Obama, or anyone else) try to run it for me. Its MINE to do with as I please.

So long as I violate the rights of no one else, all that "collective good" crap can just go screw itself.

  
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