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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dictatorship of the Proletariat (Read 3065 times)
Alan Jones
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #20 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 2:46pm
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...In fact, and again to be blunt- you can take any ideology that advocates running my life and shove it right up in your happy place....

Great first post, Mann. And welcome to the forum.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #21 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:07pm
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Hi. New here but noticed this thread and just have to put my two cents in. I do consider myself "libertarian" in many regaurds, especially when it comes to respect of the individual, individual liberty, and individual rights over collectivism and its claim of being in the best interest of all.

I'll start off and just be blunt- Karl Marx is an asshole. There are literally REAMS upon REAMS of literature and historical documentation, along with the commonly well known FACT of the abject failure -after much suffering of the poeple forcibly yoked to communism- of his ideology world wide.

http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Marx-Vicious-Racist-Anti-Semite/lm/HMOHLDDETEVO

This ideology, might I remind you, is DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY yet clearly supplementary to just about each and every totalitarian dictatorship in the world, and communism as well as socilism has been the premeire choice of gov't guilty of mass crimes against humanity in the past centruy almost to an exclusive point.

And even tho a broken analog clock can be right 2 times a day, I cannot for the life of me fathom anything at all in common with Marx's twisted, sick, collectivist Animal Farm ideology and the ideology of individual liberty of Libertarian.

Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

Lastly, i do not agree with anyone that only certain people should have access to or control of gov't. While i'm certainly not a big fan of "pure" or "Athenian" democracy (nothing but mob rule tyranny), I belive that the concept of limited by law government with democratic process of election of representative gov't and law making WITHIN THE CONFINES of the limitations of law is probably the greatest ideology of governance that has come about since pure Athenian democracy.
In a nutshell, every citizen of a nation should have a vote -a say- in government, but not to elect majorities that then use the gov't to take away the rights of anyone else.


All that "collectivism" and "dictatorship" or giving the vote to only those who pay into gov't (the income tax, BTW, being a progressive socialist invention enacted into "law" by the 16th amendment in 1913 or '14, and certainly -NOT- something the founders came up with) is nothing more then a twist on an age old philosophy- that being the "golden rule- he who has the gold, makes the rules" ideology, in other words- tyranny and opression of some over all.

Thats -not- libertarianism, at least as I know it, at all.

.........and while I'm sure we might be able to come to an agreement that we should not tolerate the wealthy running our lives, I'll not have the mob having any say in how I live my own life either, thank you very much.

In fact, and again to be blunt- you can take any ideology that advocates running my life and shove it right up in your happy place.

At the core of my own being, I realize that I came into this world alone and have, in the grand context of things, only a breif period of lucid conciousness with which to experience life.

i'll be damned if I let some asshole like Marx (or Bush, or Obama, or anyone else) try to run it for me. Its MINE to do with as I please.

So long as I violate the rights of no one else, all that "collective good" crap can just go screw itself.


Marx totally misunderstood both  economics and human nature. To make things worse, his world view was very narrow and parochial, and he suffered from the 'progressive' fantasy that government power can be used to make things 'better'.
But that doesn't mean he wasn't right about anything, ever.
All I'm talking about is restricting the vote to people who are productive. The U.S. is to the point where unproductive people living off the earnings of others are a majority, which means they can vote themselves more bread and circuses.

Wanting to return to Constitutional limited government as I do, I think restricting the vote to productive people is a good idea. They are still (in my fantasy) only going to elect Representatives to the House, because in my fantasy, Senators will once again be appointed by the States.
There will still be a Chief Executive with veto power, and a Supreme Court, to act as a bulwark for our Liberties, making sure the government doesn't exceed the limits of the Constitution. (I told you it's a fantasy!)
It will not be any sort of 'tyranny', it will just be productive people electing the sort of people they want in the House, so their lives, liberty and property will be protected. (Lots of poor people are productive, they need to vote. This isn't about class or race or anything but self supporting people v people living off the earnings of productive people.)

The alternative, we have now. Or lives, liberty and property are at risk from our own government, and unproductive people are electing our Representatives. (Should I say "Members of Congress" as they style themselves nowadays?)
  
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Zoss Mann
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #22 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:55pm
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"All I'm talking about is restricting the vote to people who are productive."

What your talking about is oligarchy of the elite, in theory the exact opposite end of the spectrum from the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and no better....... but in relaity its all the same thing. Its tyranny. Because you have money and I do not, you now get to elect a Nancy Pelosi and I now have -no- say -at all-? Undecided

Think man..... think of all the rich moonbats that would fit your criteriea..... Mikey Moore...... etc.......

I can't see how either such would lead to anything but a landed class of barons and earls, dukes and kings vs. party members and commisars, czars and "first comerades".

No sir.

If your going to claim any right of governance over me you better damn well belive i'll have a say in it, or prepare for resistance.

Rich or poor, landed or disenfrnacised, an American ought to have the right to vote. Period.

fuirther, what government in the world can be held to be legitmate if it does not derive its authority form the consent of the governmend?

No- the best model of government is one with a vote for all citizens, but -ALSO- one where democratic process is tempered by law to preserve the rights of the individual.

the problem isn't with the vote or who is voting (unless you count non-citizens, whohc you know what? shouldnt vote. period.not unless you want me to go to YOUR country and phuck your national politics all up too).

the problem is that the law -the constitution- that is supposed to be the framework of this particular government is being ignored and gov't, along with the moron mob that supports it- thinks it is now the definer of law, and by fiat, of rights it will respect.

the problem is that the Constitution here is going unenforced by those who are supposed to enforce it.

This nation is at a crossroads in history for sure.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #23 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 8:02am
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"All I'm talking about is restricting the vote to people who are productive."

What your talking about is oligarchy of the elite, ...

No, I'm talking about productive people electing Representatives to the House, and the State legislatures appointing Senators, instead of having  parasites controlling the election of both Representatives and Senators.
If you think the Constitution designed an "oligarchy of the elite" I'd just have to say you're wrong.
'Progressives' have turned the Constitution on it's head and used their perverted version to create an oligarchy of the elite. Denying non-productive people the vote would be a step in destroying what 'progressives' have created.

BTW, I support my own life. I get the exactly the same single vote for a Representative in the House that Michael Moore gets.

I guess you like having a majority of the people, who are living off the earnings of the productive, getting to choose Representatives and Senators who will continue to transfer the wealth of the productive to them?

You know, when you talk about "tempering the democratic process with law", you sound just like a 'progressive'.
  
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #24 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 3:51pm
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Zoss, I'm really interested. "Democratic process" is a phrase that 'progressive' weasels love, but they're never willing to tell me what they mean.
A "process" is a concrete series of actions, taken to achieve a goal.
What does the "democratic process" mean when you say it?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #25 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:12am
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Zoss, You know that the Constitution, before it was amended by 'progressives' seeking to institutionalize "democratic process" in the U.S., left eligibility to vote in elections for the House of Representatives entirely up the the States? And that no State permitted universal suffrage?

On one hand you tell me that universal suffrage is essential to our system of government, on the other that you really like our Constitution. Do you mean the original Constitution, or our current 'progressive' constitution?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #26 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 1:32am
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Alan Jones wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
Sure, votes are a concept, and a completely legitimate way for people to make decisions that are theirs to make. But the fact that a company's decisions are made by votes of its stockholders in no way gives that company any extra rights that its stockholders didn't have already. Voting doesn't magically create rights, or power over others. It's just a way to exercise rights that already exist.

For example, the stockholders of Ford Motor Co. might vote on whether to make a particular car model next year, as a method of exercising rights they already have. Their voting doesn't give them special extra powers to, for example, force me to buy that car against my will.

You've been around here long enough to not be that confused about libertarianism. Are you feigning it?


That about sums it up; voting is not a right but a way to exercise that right.

All I'm saying is that at no time is anyone guaranteed a vote. At one point, only landowners could vote. Then all white men. Then black men also. At last women were added. At no time was any of this a violation of libertarian principles. These people always had rights, but the ability to exercise them through a vote is not guaranteed.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Dictatorship of the Proletariat
Reply #27 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 8:13am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 1:32am:
That about sums it up; voting is not a right but a way to exercise that right.


Voting is a way to choose the people who will represent us in the House, or a way to choose Presidential electors, or a way for Congress to approve or reject proposed legislation.

Our Republic is intended to allow States to decide who will be allowed to vote for representatives in the U.S. House.
  
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