Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Why Do You Hate the Government?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why Do You Hate the Government? (Read 3490 times)
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10521
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Why Do You Hate the Government?
Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:00pm
Print Post  
I'm a little shocked by the leeway libertarians allow private industry, concerning their rules. Me and mine were watching some handegg and discussing why a particular player was suspended. They were suspended just for drinking alcohol. The NFL apparently prohibits it. According to libertarian philosophy, it's their league, so it's their rules. They ought to be able to have whatever rules they choose, as long as those rules do not conflict with the NAP. Right?

So why not just think of the government as a big private company that owns all the land? They own it all and they won't sell any of it to you, but they don't have to. The best you can do is pay them rent (property taxes) for exclusive rights to use the land. In this view, the government can make whatever rules they want on their property, because it is theirs and they are a private company and can make whatever rules they choose.

So just think of yourself as a serf. There is absolutely an obligation of production to live on the land, because it's not yours. If you don't pay your rent, this wonderful private company with the monopoly on everything should and will just rent it to someone else.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alan Jones
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2721
Joined: Apr 19th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #1 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:28pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:00pm:
So why not just think of the government as a big private company that owns all the land?

Because it's centuries after The Enlightenment, and we're enlightened. We know that government doesn't legitimately own all the land.

So why not just think of me as a King who owns all the women?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bonfire
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 283
Joined: Apr 17th, 2012
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #2 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 10:16pm
Print Post  
Government enacts its rules through violence. Private companies in a free market system do not.

Its the difference between pointing a gun at somebody, and voluntarily trading with them. That is why Libertarians hate the government.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Crystallas
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2119
Location: R[̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅]ution
Joined: May 4th, 2011
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #3 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:50am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:00pm:
They ought to be able to have whatever rules they choose, as long as those rules do not conflict with the NAP. Right?


It's all consenting. So yes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
stevea
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 992
Location: Ohio
Joined: Jul 24th, 2011
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #4 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:19am
Print Post  
Alan got the reductio ad absurdam about right.

Quote:
So why not just think of the government as a big private company that owns all the land?


So how does the OP justify the presumption that governments owns everything ? Did they buy the property in free market exchanges ? Did the government homestead & develop the empty or abandoned property ? You can't just plant a flag or make a proclamation to justification for an ownership claim.

King Alan may find that the women are self-owned and that he has no legitimate claim to his other royal assets.

Quote:
In this view, the government can make whatever rules they want on their property, because it is theirs and they are a private company and can make whatever rules they choose.


While still following NAP ?  I doubt it.

Let's say some utopian group (I'm thinking Shakers or some other communistic community) forms and the members agree to cede ownership of that property to the community, and still work the land and pay a tax to the community for use of the land.   Seems voluntary, but I immediately see two problems.   Ceding property ownership is a contractual matter and there must be some quid pro quo; clearly the person giving up title is expecting SOMETHING in return.   If/when these contract terms come into question, the system may unravel.   The other problem is when infants are born into this community, and necessarily contribute to it and then want's to leave with some reasonable fraction of the assets.   IOW how do we handle disputes over the "social contract" and how can we assert that infants and the under-aged have actually agreed to this social contract ?

This is the point where governments typically assert force

===

Here's a little morality tale in abbreviated form ...

In 1821 Spain left Mexico independent and with a pretty decent Constitution.  There were internal "states rights" vs strong-man central government sorts of issues ;  the Mexican constitution was clearly violated.  By 1835-6 President Santa Ana led an army to Tejas/Texas state to prevent secession and ultimately lost.

Texas joined the USA in 1845, and by 1860 attempted to secede (again based on states rights). The South was defeated and forced to remain in the union  In 1869 SCOTUS ruled that Texas didn't secede during  the war, and the Constitution did not permit secession.

It's very hard to see any rational argument that Texas secession from Mexico was legit, therefore joining the US was legit, but that US secession was not legit.  This sad little story is entirely about force and empire building - the lust for centralized power.

So who owns Texas ?   Who should legitimately set the rules there ?  By force it's the US Fed Gov, but any reasonably view of civil rights things are quite different.


« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:09am by stevea »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10521
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #5 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:48am
Print Post  
Alan Jones wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:28pm:
Because it's centuries after The Enlightenment, and we're enlightened. We know that government doesn't legitimately own all the land.


What did they buy when they bought Louisiana? What did Israel buy when they bought all that land those Palestinians are still living on?

(As to the point about Texas, it's unfortunate but probably necessary that a government only has to follow its own rules. Secession from Mexico was probably illegal... in the eyes of Mexico.)
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxHen
Libertarians Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 158
Joined: Aug 31st, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #6 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:18am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:48am:
What did they buy when they bought Louisiana? What did Israel buy when they bought all that land those Palestinians are still living on?

Land, but the US government's ownership of it was/is illegitimate because a) the French government had no legitimate claim to it to begin with, and b) it violated the Constitution.

As for Israel, which land are you referring to? Some of the original land was purchased by private parties, but Israel has never purchased the West Bank or anything like that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alan Jones
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2721
Joined: Apr 19th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #7 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:34am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:48am:
What did they buy when they bought Louisiana?

Political jurisdiction. Not land "ownership" in any relevant sense.

Did you think all of the private homes, ranches, etc. in the Louisiana territory were owned by the French government and sold to the U.S. government? Or that the U.S. government didn't recognize private property rights within the Louisiana territory?

And back to your OP, why on earth would you be "shocked" by libertarians "allowing leeway"? That's how we roll, you should know that by now.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 45214
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #8 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:50am
Print Post  
I like the idea of a limited government with an obligation to protect the lives, liberty and property of citizens. That way nobody has to be a serf, because we won't have a Sovereign.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10521
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #9 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:24pm
Print Post  
Alan Jones wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:34am:
Political jurisdiction. Not land "ownership" in any relevant sense.

Did you think all of the private homes, ranches, etc. in the Louisiana territory were owned by the French government and sold to the U.S. government? Or that the U.S. government didn't recognize private property rights within the Louisiana territory?

And back to your OP, why on earth would you be "shocked" by libertarians "allowing leeway"? That's how we roll, you should know that by now.


If that's true, then Israel also only bought political jurisdiction. They can't kick anyone off that land.

stevea wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:19am:
So how does the OP justify the presumption that governments owns everything ?  Did they buy the property in free market exchanges ?  Did the government homestead & develop the empty or abandoned property ?  You can't just plant a flag or make a proclamation to justification for an ownership claim.


Seems I missed this point. It's a good one.

Firstly, how they came to own the land isn't something I feel like is a fair question. You might have been born into a world where it was a private company. If you were, you wouldn't care what sort of shady dealings were undertaken in order to obtain that land. I'd venture to say you wouldn't even think you had the right to ask. Should they be forced to open their books to you?

Secondly I'll just answer the question. How did they come to own the land? Well, at some point, they seized it. I would posit that the point at which they started collecting rent (property taxes), they must obviously have transferred ownership of all the property. It is a flat fact that you do not have to pay rent to live n your own land. At that point it was illegal. That is when objection ought to have been made. Now it's much too late.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Why Do You Hate the Government?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy