Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Why Do You Hate the Government?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why Do You Hate the Government? (Read 3349 times)
Dissident Right
Ex Member


Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #10 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:42pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:00pm:
So why not just think of the government as a big private company that owns all the land?

Because it’s not and it doesn’t?

The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:24pm:
Firstly, how they came to own the land isn't something I feel like is a fair question. You might have been born into a world where it was a private company. If you were, you wouldn't care what sort of shady dealings were undertaken in order to obtain that land. I'd venture to say you wouldn't even think you had the right to ask. Should they be forced to open their books to you?

If there was a tremendous public dispute over the ownership of that land, they would be "forced" to open their books to defend the claim, or else concede that their claim is illegitimate.

The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:24pm:
Secondly I'll just answer the question. How did they come to own the land? Well, at some point, they seized it.

Seizing something doesn't give you ownership over it. It just makes you a thief.

The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:24pm:
I would posit that the point at which they started collecting rent (property taxes), they must obviously have transferred ownership of all the property.

How does that follow? That doesn't make any sense.

The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:24pm:
That is when objection ought to have been made. Now it's much too late.

It's never too late to return stolen property to its rightful owner, or to return unclaimed property to the "state of nature".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41801
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #11 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:10pm
Print Post  
Quote:
It's never too late to return stolen property to its rightful owner, or to return unclaimed property to the "state of nature".

Unclaimed property is in the "state of nature", unless you're talking about personal items left at the gym?

Determining the rightful owner of stolen property requires proof of actual ownership. If you think someone is in possession of your property, and you can prove it's really yours, file a suit in the appropriate court.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9425
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #12 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:20pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Seizing something doesn't give you ownership over it. It just makes you a thief.

It's never too late to return stolen property to its rightful owner, or to return unclaimed property to the "state of nature".


It's too late when the rightful owner is dead. Saying that the descendants of rightful owners are more rightful owners themselves than the government is admitting that America in its entirety ought to be given back to the Native Americans. Population displacement happens. Ever since humans (who were probably Asians) came across the land bridge to America, every large body of land has had people living on it.

I'm not disputing the leeway libertarians give to private companies. It's fine, if it's given to every entity equally. An individual person ought not to be treated differently by the law than Walmart, or even the government itself.

I find it difficult to believe that if you woke up one day, and someone had changed history around you, and you did in fact live under the rule of a private company, and in the exact same state of things, you would be alright with being a serf and call it fair, but when the government does it, you cry foul.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxHen
Libertarians Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 158
Joined: Aug 31st, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #13 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:45pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:20pm:
It's too late when the rightful owner is dead. Saying that the descendants of rightful owners are more rightful owners themselves than the government is admitting that America in its entirety ought to be given back to the Native Americans. Population displacement happens. Ever since humans (who were probably Asians) came across the land bridge to America, every large body of land has had people living on it.

For the most part, the US government was responsible for massacring and forcibly resettling Native Americans. After Native Americans were killed and/or forcibly resettled from their land, that land reverted to the unowned "state of nature" and was then homesteaded by settlers.

In the case of the USFedGov, the same thief who stole the land to begin with is still exercising illegitimate ownership of it and forcing its inhabitants to live as serfs. The solution is simple: Attempt to kill the thief (or just wait for him to die if you don't think that's realistic) and allow former serfs (citizens) to exercise full ownership of their rightful property.

Quote:
I'm not disputing the leeway libertarians give to private companies. It's fine, if it's given to every entity equally. An individual person ought not to be treated differently by the law than Walmart, or even the government itself.

Libertarians don't give any "leeway" to private enterprises. If a private company sent out a bunch of goons to force people to purchase their services and ban any other firm from providing those services, libertarians would recognize that as theft and coercion. Statists are the ones who give government leeway to do things that would be considered criminal were any other institution to engage in them.

Quote:
I find it difficult to believe that if you woke up one day, and someone had changed history around you, and you did in fact live under the rule of a private company, and in the exact same state of things, you would be alright with being a serf and call it fair, but when the government does it, you cry foul.

The only way you could become a serf to a private company would be if that company forced you to involuntarily render tribute to it in exchange for its "services." In that case, said company would be acting no different than a government and would be engaging in theft and coercion in the view of libertarians.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41801
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #14 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:59pm
Print Post  
MaxHen wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:45pm:
For the most part, the US government was responsible for massacring and forcibly resettling Native Americans. After Native Americans were killed and/or forcibly resettled from their land, that land reverted to the unowned "state of nature" and was then homesteaded by settlers.


Massacring  each other, taking slaves and stealing property, and driving other tribes off of land they wanted to use was what the native Americans were doing when the Europeans got here. For the most part, the original natives didn't recognize ownership of land, so it was essentially in a "state of nature" when the Europeans got here. Not that the King of Spain cared at all, or the Pope either.
Territory was claimed by many different European Sovereigns.  European Sovereign governments claimed the entirety of the New World, then granted it out to favored people.
When the U.S. was created, the newly created States claimed territory. later the U.S. claimed more territory. None of this territory was in a "state of nature". Homesteaded land was granted to the homesteader by the government under a set of laws passed by Congress, administered by territorial governments and the Army.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Josh
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Stop looking at me like
that, you pervert.

Posts: 4273
Location: Inside your girlfriend
Joined: Aug 8th, 2010
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #15 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:11pm
Print Post  
It's an accurate observation. Either the government has legitimate ownership rights over their territory, in which we can't complain about whatever rules they make, or they do not have legitimate ownership rights. However, if they do not have legitimate ownership rights over their territory, they have no jurisdiction to make any rules, in the same way that I cannot impose rules on my neighbor's property. When faced with this dilemma, the libertarian must either accept statism as find and dandy or recognize the intellectually consistent solution of anarchism.
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9425
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #16 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:58am
Print Post  
MaxHen wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:45pm:
For the most part, the US government was responsible for massacring and forcibly resettling Native Americans. After Native Americans were killed and/or forcibly resettled from their land, that land reverted to the unowned "state of nature" and was then homesteaded by settlers.

In the case of the USFedGov, the same thief who stole the land to begin with is still exercising illegitimate ownership of it and forcing its inhabitants to live as serfs. The solution is simple: Attempt to kill the thief (or just wait for him to die if you don't think that's realistic) and allow former serfs (citizens) to exercise full ownership of their rightful property.


The settlers, under the jurisdiction of the slaughterfest, I argue, ought to be held accountable too. The land isn't theirs either if we're really going to go back and undo all illegitimate seizure of property.

MaxHen wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:45pm:
Libertarians don't give any "leeway" to private enterprises. If a private company sent out a bunch of goons to force people to purchase their services and ban any other firm from providing those services, libertarians would recognize that as theft and coercion. Statists are the ones who give government leeway to do things that would be considered criminal were any other institution to engage in them.


I'm going to hold every one of you people to this. I'm actually bookmarking this link so I can quote this later. I only hope you include economic means; in other words, forcing people to buy from you is forcing, no matter how it's done.

MaxHen wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:45pm:
The only way you could become a serf to a private company would be if that company forced you to involuntarily render tribute to it in exchange for its "services." In that case, said company would be acting no different than a government and would be engaging in theft and coercion in the view of libertarians.


Or if they owned every last bit of land there was.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vexer
Libertarians Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 116
Joined: Aug 29th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #17 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 5:30am
Print Post  
>> So just think of yourself as a serf.

Who votes-in the land-lord. Big difference.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alan Jones
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2721
Joined: Apr 19th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #18 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 6:13am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:20pm:
I find it difficult to believe that if you woke up one day, and someone had changed history around you, and you did in fact live under the rule of a private company, and in the exact same state of things, you would be alright with being a serf and call it fair, but when the government does it, you cry foul.

Of course that's hard to believe, because it makes no sense. You're using the term "private company" but actually describing a defacto state. Libertarians would obviously still use the term "state" to refer to the type of ruling entity you mention, so why on earth would we not "cry foul".

Do you think libertarians would be tricked into not "crying foul" by a silly word trick? By merely calling an authoritarian state by a different name?

Gee, North Korea should just change its name to "Korean Private Corporation" so all the libertarians around the world would suddenly be tricked into thinking they were the swellest country around! Shocked
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41801
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #19 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:20am
Print Post  
Alan Jones wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 6:13am:
Gee, North Korea should just change its name to "Korean Private Corporation" so all the libertarians around the world would suddenly be tricked into thinking they were the swellest country around! Shocked

Russia Incorporated, Vladimir Putin, Chairman and CEO. That sounds good too, very libertarian/free market.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Why Do You Hate the Government?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy