Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Why Do You Hate the Government?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why Do You Hate the Government? (Read 3348 times)
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9425
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #20 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:58pm
Print Post  
Alan Jones wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 6:13am:
Of course that's hard to believe, because it makes no sense. You're using the term "private company" but actually describing a defacto state. Libertarians would obviously still use the term "state" to refer to the type of ruling entity you mention, so why on earth would we not "cry foul".

Do you think libertarians would be tricked into not "crying foul" by a silly word trick? By merely calling an authoritarian state by a different name?

Gee, North Korea should just change its name to "Korean Private Corporation" so all the libertarians around the world would suddenly be tricked into thinking they were the swellest country around! Shocked


I absolutely do think it's a matter of pure nomenclature. A de facto state is not necessarily a de jure government. As others have pointed out in other threads, a corporation may have any type of rule, and even a constitution, but it remains definitively not a government. A corporation could get powerful enough to own everything. They remain a private entity even if they act in the exact same manner as our current government and nothing at all changes.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41795
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #21 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 7:37am
Print Post  
Josh wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:11pm:
It's an accurate observation. Either the government has legitimate ownership rights over their territory, in which we can't complain about whatever rules they make, or they do not have legitimate ownership rights. However, if they do not have legitimate ownership rights over their territory, they have no jurisdiction to make any rules, in the same way that I cannot impose rules on my neighbor's property. When faced with this dilemma, the libertarian must either accept statism as find and dandy or recognize the intellectually consistent solution of anarchism.

It's not a dilemma if you impose rules on your government, limiting the legislation they may enact. Doing this, as our Constitution does, doesn't confer "ownership rights" of the nation to the national government, it merely gives them limited power to act within the borders of the country.
Anarchism might be an intellectually consistent theory, but it's just a fantasy as long as there are people in the world with no respect for the lives, liberty and property of others.
I don't think "statism" is "fine and dandy", I like limited Constitutional government.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41795
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #22 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 7:44am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:58am:
The settlers, under the jurisdiction of the slaughterfest, I argue, ought to be held accountable too. The land isn't theirs either if we're really going to go back and undo all illegitimate seizure of property.

Since the native Americans didn't believe in ownership of land, the land was in a "state of nature", free to anyone who wanted it. That's just a technicality.
In reality, tribes in America claimed land for their exclusive use, driving other tribes off of land they wanted, and defending land they claimed for their own use. Many of the tribes slaughtered others just as a matter of tradition. Making war against anyone not of their tribe was part of their culture. Not all the tribes, but many.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41795
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #23 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 7:47am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:58am:
I'm going to hold every one of you people to this. I'm actually bookmarking this link so I can quote this later. I only hope you include economic means; in other words, forcing people to buy from you is forcing, no matter how it's done.

Tell me how to do this, please. I've got a bunch of stuff in my garage I'd like to sell, but nobody seems to want to buy it. I really need to know how to force somebody to buy it from me, without running afoul of the law of course.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9425
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #24 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:07am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 7:44am:
Since the native Americans didn't believe in ownership of land, the land was in a "state of nature", free to anyone who wanted it. That's just a technicality.
In reality, tribes in America claimed land for their exclusive use, driving other tribes off of land they wanted, and defending land they claimed for their own use. Many of the tribes slaughtered others just as a matter of tradition. Making war against anyone not of their tribe was part of their culture. Not all the tribes, but many.


That's bloody right.

If you believe in property rights, you probably shouldn't go about forcing others off their land, even if they don't. It's not necessarily wrong but you lose a lot of face doing it.

As to forcing someone to buy from you, there are plenty of options. Cronyism, force the competition out of business, or simply exert a monopoly. Do you have enough wealth to force the claim that the crap in your garbage is necessary for the safety of neighbours, and that not purchasing it in fact violates the NAP? *cough* insurance *cough*
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alan Jones
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2721
Joined: Apr 19th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #25 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:07am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:58pm:
I absolutely do think it's a matter of pure nomenclature. A de facto state is not necessarily a de jure government. As others have pointed out in other threads, a corporation may have any type of rule, and even a constitution, but it remains definitively not a government. A corporation could get powerful enough to own everything. They remain a private entity even if they act in the exact same manner as our current government and nothing at all changes.

Why would you not call it a state if it meets every definition of a state? You're not making much sense here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9425
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #26 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:08am
Print Post  
Alan Jones wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:07am:
Why would you not call it a state if it meets every definition of a state? You're not making much sense here.


There are probably a lot of private companies today that meet every definition of a state. Can you leave them if you like? Sure. You can renounce your citizenship, too.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alan Jones
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2721
Joined: Apr 19th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #27 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:08pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:08am:
There are probably a lot of private companies today that meet every definition of a state.

Really? Which one of them has threatened to lock me up in a cage for not doing what they want, knowing they had the legal authority to do so?

Seriously, you're making less and less sense with each post. I at least thought you were a little smarter than some retarded Marxist incapable of comprehending the difference between states and private parties.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 41795
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #28 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 3:25pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:07am:
As to forcing someone to buy from you, there are plenty of options. Cronyism, force the competition out of business, or simply exert a monopoly. [/size]

You're such a fool. "Simply exert a monopoly" is the most inane statement I've heard in a long time.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dissident Right
Ex Member


Re: Why Do You Hate the Government?
Reply #29 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 4:09pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:10pm:
Unclaimed property is in the "state of nature", unless you're talking about personal items left at the gym?

The State has a pretend claim over a lot of genuinely unclaimed wilderness territory. That is what I'm talking about.

The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:20pm:
It's too late when the rightful owner is dead.

Most owned property in the US is owned by people who aren't dead. The State could easily renounce its illegitimate claim on that property.

The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:20pm:
is admitting that America in its entirety ought to be given back to the Native Americans.

The Indians didn't own the entirety of the North American continent, or anything more than a tiny fraction of it. Almost all of it was genuinely unclaimed, and up until the ACW, the European colonists were typically very good about buying owned land legitimately.

The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:20pm:
I find it difficult to believe that if you woke up one day, and someone had changed history around you, and you did in fact live under the rule of a private company, and in the exact same state of things, you would be alright with being a serf and call it fair, but when the government does it, you cry foul.

Well, you'd be right. If we substitute a "private organization" for the State, but it behaves exactly as the State does, then people would rightly complain about that too, for the same reasons. The thinking is that if this private organization behaved morally (i.e., not like a State), then history would have turned out very, very differently.

The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:58am:
I'm going to hold every one of you people to this.

Good.

Josh wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:11pm:
It's an accurate observation. Either the government has legitimate ownership rights over their territory, in which we can't complain about whatever rules they make, or they do not have legitimate ownership rights. However, if they do not have legitimate ownership rights over their territory, they have no jurisdiction to make any rules, in the same way that I cannot impose rules on my neighbor's property. When faced with this dilemma, the libertarian must either accept statism as find and dandy or recognize the intellectually consistent solution of anarchism.

Indeed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Why Do You Hate the Government?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy