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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution? (Read 6590 times)
Sammael7
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Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:49pm
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On the surface they seem radically opposed to all of it, particularly when it comes to government services that called wellfare.


But if we look a bit more closely, I'd imagine virtually all libertarians are perfectly fine and happy with the state collecting taxes and redistributing those taxes to pay for goods and services in key areas.

Take k-12 education.

Does anyone want to abolish state funded education?  Turn it completely private with no public funding?  Even if libertarians favor a system of private schools with vouchers, those vouchers are the DEFINITION of redistribution of income.  They can add up to thousands of dollars per year.  It is certainly the case that not all families will pay enough in taxes to cover the cost of those vouchers.  We are in essence providing WELLFARE to poorer families when it comes to k-12 education.  Decided that even if a private family cannot afford and pay for their own k-12 education for their children, society, through government, will cover the cost so that the ENTIRE population is granted some baseline level of schooling.   Does it always succeed?  Of course not, but then utopia does not exist on this earth.  But the point still stands.

How many libertarians are against publicly funded education for k-12?  How many would change it over to a totally private system where you would have many cases where the parents are too poor or incapable of paying for education (perhaps because of their own failures - now their childrens problem because of their birth lottery [the least meritocratic force in the universe libertarians seem loathe to confront])?

Is the answer to those cases really, wow, sucks to be you, but government has no role in setting up and paying for any baselines in education?  Is the answer that private charities will be up to the task of filling that gaps in the nation?

I wonder.  What is your answer to this libertarians?  That you are OK with THIS kind of redistribution (and it is redistribution of income for social services), but not others?  Or are you against it all?
  
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MaxHen
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #1 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:08pm
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I support 100% private education with no vouchers. I might be ok with using vouchers to replace/transition from the current system, but long term I don't think there should be any government funding of eduction. Why? Because if taxpayer money is flowing to schools, government will use it as an excuse to regulate private schools, set curriculum requirements, etc. Or, some schools will be excluded from the voucher program and the program will serve as a distortive subsidy to certain types of education.

Since current private schools are generally fairly expensive, many people assume that tuition would just stay at the same level if public education were abolished and the poor would be trapped in ignorance. However, if there was actually consumer demand for lower-cost education services (as there would be if the "free" [in reality, hidden-cost] education system was abolished), the supply would increase drastically and private education would be become far more available and affordable. Instead of low-income people being trapped in crappy neighborhood schools that have no incentive to provide quality education (and no way to respond to market demand for different kinds of education), you would have multiple schools in close proximity, possibly with different teaching styles and curricula, constantly competing to win the dollars of parents and families. Contrast that to the current socialized system which is standardized to a great extent and is designed to benefit public-sector teachers rather than students and families.

Plus, with the advent of online schooling, the cost would continue to plummet as competition intensified even further due to consumer demand. That's the great thing about free markets: You constantly have intense competition between providers producing better-quality goods/services at lower cost. You never know what more complex or diverse good/service will be produced by the market next.
  
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #2 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:14pm
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:49pm:
I'd imagine virtually all libertarians are perfectly fine and happy with the state collecting taxes and redistributing those taxes to pay for goods and services in key areas.

Not the libertarians who have any sort of integrity or consistency.
  

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Crystallas
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #3 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:26pm
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I am 100% against compulsory education.


The issue that gets mixed up, especially in the US(as well as the assumption that libertarianism is limited to US policies), is between a libertarian and a Constitutionalist. Some believe the two to be the same, however, they aren't.
  
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kypho
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #4 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:45pm
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ending tax money to nuiversity and k-12 and allowing fre emarket no government rules for education would be HUGE gain

HUGE

teachers could again hold thier head high

instead of being counted as welfare job handout recipients as they are now
  
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #5 - Sep 8th, 2014 at 11:29pm
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:49pm:
But if we look a bit more closely, I'd imagine virtually all libertarians are perfectly fine and happy with the state collecting taxes and redistributing those taxes to pay for goods and services in key areas.




Huh? WTF?


Whatchoo talkin 'bout Willis?.
  
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Sammael7
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #6 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:10am
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 11:29pm:
Huh? WTF?


Whatchoo talkin 'bout Willis?.



Clearly I was mistaken, I tried to come up with an example I thought all but the most purist libertarian types would accept, government spending on elementary school education, even if only in the form of vouchers.

Every single person here rejected the practice. The assumption/belief/dogma seems to be that if we JUST abolished the practice and turned if over to private hands, eventually costs would go low enough that everyone could afford schooling. Even poor people.

I wonder what the response would be for adults that have kids and are having issues with jobs and drugs and can't even hold a job. Presumably in this libertarian paradise, there are no more government handouts and welfare to enable their broken lifestyles. Perhaps at that point they would hope/pray their libertarian ideals would lead to private charities taking over, or the state just taking the kids and allowing them to be adopted. But then there is that holy evil known as the state using FORCE to take kids that might cause issues for many here. It is a conundrum.

I had thought the alternatives to some form of redistribution to level out the baseline resources spent on something like early education would be so catastrophic that even libertarians would bend their philosophy. I was wrong.
  
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #7 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:51am
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School funding is not quite the same as 'income redistribution'; school funding is more like a debt repayment.
The free market system along with private/individual charities are the proper means of 'income redistribution' in a free society.
  
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #8 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:06am
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:49pm:
But if we look a bit more closely, I'd imagine virtually all libertarians are perfectly fine and happy with the state collecting taxes and redistributing those taxes to pay for goods and services in key areas.

I do not accept compulsory taxation since that would be initiation of force. However, it is possible to generate some State income without initiation of force (as explained in http://rgaud.com/english.htm , section 7.6-7.6.10), and this may be used for subsidizing some fundamental education (at least for low income families).
  
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #9 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 5:46am
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:10am:
Every single person here rejected the practice. The assumption/belief/dogma seems to be that if we JUST abolished the practice and turned if over to private hands, eventually costs would go low enough that everyone could afford schooling. Even poor people.

This is your assumption.

Sammael7 wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:10am:
I wonder what the response would be for adults that have kids and are having issues with jobs and drugs and can't even hold a job. Presumably in this libertarian paradise, there are no more government handouts and welfare to enable their broken lifestyles. Perhaps at that point they would hope/pray their libertarian ideals would lead to private charities taking over, or the state just taking the kids and allowing them to be adopted. But then there is that holy evil known as the state using FORCE to take kids that might cause issues for many here. It is a conundrum.

Be aware, when applying a vacuum, it is only going to have narrow theories. Some will apply vacuum after vacuum, when in reality none of the vacuum hypotheses or theories are ever close to being accurate. When something is different(especially when factoring in a major design of a culture), it is not just the one thing, but more than any computer or human mind can account for. The entire landscape is different, even if slightly, and all of it adds up to a different result.
The fallacy would be to assume an unfavorable result, when human beings are extremely resilient and able to develop solutions to suit their own needs quite well, especially considering the time to plan and make choices according to their needs and situation(and not expect a small band of snap decisions for sake of debate). The persons also learn from others who develop solutions, and so on and so fourth. Ultimately evolving a system to benefit those who are in special need, and the libertarian conflict is that we reject the solution requiring involuntarily taking from Peter to pay Paul, so to speak, regardless of economic status(then you have the envy rule, but ignore the true economic utility, opposed to the sloppy single line measurement of utility which ignores every which factor, other than one favorable to the argument).

Sammael7 wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:10am:
I had thought the alternatives to some form of redistribution to level out the baseline resources spent on something like early education would be so catastrophic that even libertarians would bend their philosophy. I was wrong.


A consistent libertarian ultimately supports liberty in the form of the NAP from all angles, and not just from the perspective that seems favorable to one group or another. To apply reverse-fabianism is also a favorable option to some, but not an ultimate compromise. Where the differences vary would sit between the economics of the individual deemed as a libertarian. (libertarianism is one discourse, but the school of economics(a second discourse with a mere compatibility layer) aren't the same for every person, which is a great misconception for those who make assumptions based on perception).
To some, they may see vouchers as the only way a market would be able to handle the change, and give competition to create the necessary demands that signal what can be done, and who can do it, because we are so far to an extreme with socialized education. Some may see that the market will better see a shorter adjustment period, rather than a prolonged progression to a true free market for any education-based solutions(simply so those involved can also evolve the solutions to cater best to the needs). And this other view is supported, because you still have the existing teachers that can continue to work as teachers, regardless of system(so as long as the demand exists for them, and we have no reason to believe the demand doesn't exist at whatever capacity is supported by the consumers in play).
  
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