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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution? (Read 6589 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #10 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:20pm
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:10am:
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I had thought the alternatives to some form of redistribution to level out the baseline resources spent on something like early education would be so catastrophic that even libertarians would bend their philosophy. I was wrong.


The Libertarian philosophy is sound. No bending needed.

In the 19th century (prior to the nanny-state), towns with a "public' school taxed only those families with children.
And of course, parents could choose to "opt out" and home-school their kids.

I think this system easily falls within parameters of Libertarian ideals. Because it was the choice of the parents (and not the state) to decide how their child was to be schooled.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #11 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:46pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:20pm:
The Libertarian philosophy is sound. No bending needed.

In the 19th century (prior to the nanny-state), towns with a "public' school taxed only those families with children.
And of course, parents could choose to "opt out" and home-school their kids.

I think this system easily falls within parameters of Libertarian ideals. Because it was the choice of the parents (and not the state) to decide how their child was to be schooled.

Well said.
I read a biography of Thomas Edison about a year ago. He was a schoolchild in Michigan, where they did it a little differently. If you wanted to send your child to a Michigan public school, there was a fee. Interesting too, you had to teach your child to  read before the public school would accept them.
A very good idea, since learning to read also requires learning some self control, and it activates portions of the brain that will be useful in school. it's what used to be called, "ready for school".
  
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Jeff
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #12 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:52pm
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 5:49pm:
On the surface they seem radically opposed to all of it....
At the first instance, you are completely wrong.

Libertarian opposition to the redistribution of wealth by government is a core belief. It's supported by logic and by massive amounts of empirical evidence. The result of having a government with the power to take from the productive and give to whoever they want to bribe or buy or intimidate, is always poverty and a repressive dictatorial police state. It's easy to oppose wholeheartedly.
  
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MOLON LABE
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #13 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 5:54am
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I do not support any kind of involuntary income redistribution. If you want to donate to something that's your business.

My kids absolutely will not attend a state run indoctrination center. That is a big part of what's wrong with this country and why most people think that you have to choose a master with an "R" or "D" by their name.
  

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them." -RAH
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Dissident Right
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #14 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 4:07pm
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State-funded education is very high on the list of things to abolish. State-funded education is fundamentally responsible for somewhere around 100% of the State's mischief and wickedness, because by changing the views of the next generation the State wills itself the power to expand.

Education, fundamentally speaking, is extremely cheap. People are under the delusion that it is expensive because they are under the delusion that education requires a lot of expensive, fancy frills. There used to be no such thing as non-first class airline seats, for example. Air travel was for the rich only. Let the market get a hold of education and you'll see costs collapse by 50, 60, 80, 90%.

Finally, parents don't need the State to tell them to educate their children.

Nor do rich people need the State to tell them that charity for the purpose of educating the extremely poor is the height of pragmatism and morality.
  
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Sammael7
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #15 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:02am
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I kind of wish we could test some of these theories out. It's true that the government did not used to be directly involved in education, and at that time we had a much larger chunk of the population that was illiterate. Now things are different today, I am sure more people would find it useful to pay out of pocket for education today then when our economy was more agrarian and there was less of a payoff. But the marginal cases would almost certainly be worse off in such a system.

But then, libertarians never claimed to care about the marginal cases. Freedom to fail, freedom to poison yourself and die, freedom to gamble to your hearts content with no constraints on zoning for casinos, freedom to pay or not pay for your kids education. No sensible parent would choose not to pay for that, and for those that were not sensible or capable, wealthier people would be charitable and pick up the slack. So goes the theory.

Again, we'll likely never know because no society I can conceive of would run the kind of experiment that would remove all education funding and leave it completely up to private hands and funds. Which is both good and bad for libertarians. Those ideas won't likely ever be forced through the crucible of experimentation and refutation (hence the dogma remains both unproven and unmolested). They will remain assertions, conflated as facts about how the world works. And no one will have hard data one way or the other.
  
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #16 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:19am
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:02am:
Those ideas won't likely ever be forced through the crucible of experimentation and refutation (hence the dogma remains both unproven and unmolested). They will remain assertions, conflated as facts about how the world works. And no one will have hard data one way or the other.


Ah. Agreed. The fundamental problem with "modern libertarianism" is that assertions are conflated as facts.

As for education, it was private for most communities up through Revolutionary war times here in the US. Public schools were available in New England by 1750 but in 1850 Illinois, Lincoln did not go to a regular school. I'm not aware of what facilities were in the South.

In most war zones (Syria for instance) schools are private.

Every country opts for public education K-6 as soon as they are able. I would assert (conflate) that the reason is to indoctrinate children into a shared application of "natural law" (given that natural law is neither) and it suits community for people to share a cultural bias on what is right and wrong, so they may do things like read the constitution.

I think there is a test of libertarian theory, however. The test for libertarian theory would be to find organizations that exist that follow libertarian principles. Even though they are not "states", the principles would be the same. Any thoughts on organizations that follow the principle of no-organization?  Boy scouts, for instance, or Rotary?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #17 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:35am
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 4:02am:
I kind of wish we could test some of these theories out. It's true that the government did not used to be directly involved in education, and at that time we had a much larger chunk of the population that was illiterate.

This is exactly backwards, totally wrong. Literacy was much higher in the U.S. before governments took over the education of our children.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #18 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:38am
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JW wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:19am:
Ah. Agreed. The fundamental problem with "modern libertarianism" is that assertions are conflated as facts.

You're confusing libertarianism with 'progressivism'. Libertarians like facts and science and rational thinking. 'Progressives' like to warp reality to fit their dreams and hopes and feelings, and also to justify ever more power being placed in the hands of government 'experts'.

To the point of the original post, who knows best how to spend the money you earn? You, or government 'experts'?
  
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Alan Jones
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #19 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 11:17am
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JW wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:19am:
The test for libertarian theory would be to find organizations that exist that follow libertarian principles. Even though they are not "states", the principles would be the same. Any thoughts on organizations that follow the principle of no-organization? Boy scouts, for instance, or Rotary?

No coercion doesn't mean no organization. And your plan to study non-government organizations won't work. Because violating libertarian principles (violating the non-aggresion principle) is already a criminal act for any private organization (except as an authorized agent of government).

Governments may like violating libertarian principles, but they generally like having a monopoly on it.
  
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