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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution? (Read 6871 times)
Dissident Right
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #50 - Sep 17th, 2014 at 12:31pm
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The only thing you wrote that I disagree with is "what seems to be the problem here".

The problem is that Jeff's endgame is limited aggressive government, not non-aggressive government, and the fact that he carefully couches his terms to pretend that his government isn't aggressive.

Because Jeff is dishonest on this point, he is incapable of an honest discussion re: the details of non-aggressive government. And for that matter re: the details of limited aggressive government.

Yet he always wants to know about how "anarchist" government will work.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #51 - Sep 17th, 2014 at 3:54pm
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Alan Jones wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 12:11pm:
If we agree that non-aggressive government >> aggressive government, but not that less aggressive government >> more aggressive government, there is still no point in debating the details of government. And it's the latter that seems to be the problem here.

Everyone agrees that non-aggression is the ideal state of affairs, but anyone advocating limiting government aggression is accused (by some) of favoring it because they don't, as a practical matter, insist on "all or nothing".

As long as that's the case, debating the details is certainly pointless. As Walter Block has said, we should work to eliminate the 95% of government we agree on, then after we succeed, argue about the remaining 5%. It's not only a better strategy, it would result in less chaos and more acclimatization.

Very true, and if the ideal of an An-Cap society is possible, it will come from a society with strictly limited government.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #52 - Sep 17th, 2014 at 3:57pm
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Yet he always wants to know about how "anarchist" government will work.

No, I keep asking how it will be feasible to go from a world of large nasty nation states with unlimited governments and vast armies, plus large areas that are failed states controlled by gangs of thugs or fanatics, to an An-Cap society.
The best answer I have so far is, "Maybe you could do it in New Hampshire".
  

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Alan Jones
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #53 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 1:30am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 3:54pm:
Very true, and if the ideal of an An-Cap society is possible, it will come from a society with strictly limited government.

Even if it's not possible (as is normally the case with ideal scenarios), it's very useful to have it as an ideal.

This is what AnCaps seem to misconstrue about minarchism. We consider zero aggression to be ideal, too. We just know it's unachievable, and believe minarchism will end up closer to that ideal than AnCap would.
  
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Alan Jones
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #54 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 1:42am
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The only thing you wrote that I disagree with is "what seems to be the problem here".

The problem is that Jeff's endgame is limited aggressive government, not non-aggressive government, and the fact that he carefully couches his terms to pretend that his government isn't aggressive.

Because Jeff is dishonest on this point, he is incapable of an honest discussion re: the details of non-aggressive government. And for that matter re: the details of limited aggressive government.

Yet he always wants to know about how "anarchist" government will work.

Oh, baloney. You don't get to pretend that AnCap will magically result in zero-aggression, or even less aggression, if tried in a society that mostly opposes the NAP.

Private security/police in AnCap reflects the will of consumers. Most consumers today are thieving Marxists. Add that up and see what you get.

The only way AnCap could be anything other than anti-NAP would be in a society that was already mostly libertarian. Lets re-evaluate it after a few decades of libertarian minarchism.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #55 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 5:03pm
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I take it for granted that non-idiots recognize a difference between a society that is developing towards some particular goal and a society that has reached the goal.

If limited aggressive government is a stepping stone to non-aggressive government, then God bless the Constitution.

If, however, there are people (Jeff) who are under the delusion that limited aggressive government is the functional "ideal", then I don't understand what your problem is with correcting them. Aggressive government is not the ideal.

Alan Jones wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 1:42am:
Oh, baloney. You don't get to pretend that AnCap will magically result in zero-aggression, or even less aggression, if tried in a society that mostly opposes the NAP.

Given how often I rail about the necessity for idealogical homogenous communities and my basis for doing so (namely that you can't very well have a libertarian community if a third of the people are commies), I can only say…duh?
  
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Josh
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #56 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 5:34pm
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Wait, Alan, you're still not an anarchist? What books have you been reading?
  

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Dissident Right
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #57 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 5:47pm
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I'll just point out that I'm not "against leaders" because it's perfectly possible for leaders to lead without aggression. There are millions of examples.

In fact, the best leaders are the ones who lead without aggression.
  
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pjkon
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #58 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 6:53pm
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Q) Will anarco-capistan inevitably be destroyed by the nation states around it? 

1) The physics department of an anarcho-capistan university constructs 3 nuclear explosives as a science project.
2) Nope.

Seriously, I don't know why no one has ever thought of this. Grin
  
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Re: Don't almost all libertarians support a kind of income redistribution?
Reply #59 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 9:28pm
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pjkon wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 6:53pm:
Q) Will anarco-capistan inevitably be destroyed by the nation states around it? 

1) The physics department of an anarcho-capistan university constructs 3 nuclear explosives as a science project.
2) Nope.

Seriously, I don't know why no one has ever thought of this. Grin


Someone bumps the table in the lab at anarcho-capistan.  Boom.

True statement.  The nation states around it did not destroy anarcho-capistan.

Just kidding ;-D
  
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