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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet? (Read 5969 times)
pjkon
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #10 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:01pm
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To be fair the tea in question was held by a company with a state enforced monopoly, so its "private" nature was questionable.

Oh, and hello freeforall, welcome to the forums. Its always good to have new members.

As to the question you asked about the constitution, I'd say it was far from perfect, but I don't think anything better has ever been tried in a reasonably modern context.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #11 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:22pm
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Good answer. 

One of my other questions was why did the constitutional and liberty based colonial American government lose its mission?  My answer was essentially corruption for personal gain.  Am I wrong about that?  If I am, what were the reasons?  Also, if we could roll back government to that limited one, what would prevent the same process from reoccurring?

And thanks for the welcome.  It's good to finally jump in the pool with others rather than doing mostly solo research.
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Crystallas
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #12 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:46pm
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freeforall wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:27am:
Ok. Crystallas: I'm not making a planet. But I want to know how to spread libertarianism to a large percentage of the planet so that I and others may live in peace and freedom. How does that get done?



Well, everyone has their own strategy. The newer and younger folks like to argue about it online, and really, nothing can be done about that with this generation. But as a person does more research, they come up with new ideas of their own that have more effectiveness than armchair activism.

As far as not reading some great books, like many by Rothbard, Bastiat, Mises, even Ron Paul. All I can say is that you're just delaying the inevitable. What's the difference between reading a great deal and reading a great deal? You want to do it on forums and whatever crib note sources, well, that is the equivalent of watching movie trailers to know a story, rather than watch the whole thing. You wind up with a donut hole, missing the bulk of work and effort gone into wildly complex and fascinating topics.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #13 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:20pm
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Good points.  Knowing myself lately, I'm just a terrible reader.  I possibly don't have the time but it's probably more that I don't have the interest for reading anything.  I'm all about the 'shoot & destroy' rather than wading through all the fields before finding my target.

Is there any one book that can help me understand jurisprudence in an anarchocapitalistic society?  I always find that confusing.  How about weapons of mass destruction for sale on the free market?
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Jeff
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #14 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:58pm
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freeforall wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:20pm:
Good points. Knowing myself lately, I'm just a terrible reader. I possibly don't have the time but it's probably more that I don't have the interest for reading anything. I'm all about the 'shoot & destroy' rather than wading through all the fields before finding my target.
Is there any one book that can help me understand jurisprudence in an anarchocapitalistic society? I always find that confusing. How about weapons of mass destruction for sale on the free market?

You're a terrible reader with no time to read, but you want somebody to recommend some very deep and esoteric book with a theme of law and the theory of government?
Weapons of mass destruction have been on the free market, that I know of, since at least the 1950's, but probably forever.
There is currently a stipulation that the buyer of the weapons of mass destruction must be a 'government' or at least semi-organized with some sort of agenda.  "Ordinary" citizens in "free" countries aren't allowed to have even good weapons for self defense.
Oh, you were talking abut anarchy? Anything goes.
  
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pjkon
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #15 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 4:48pm
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freeforall wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:22pm:
Good answer.

One of my other questions was why did the constitutional and liberty based colonial American government lose its mission? My answer was essentially corruption for personal gain. Am I wrong about that? If I am, what were the reasons? Also, if we could roll back government to that limited one, what would prevent the same process from reoccurring?

And thanks for the welcome. It's good to finally jump in the pool with others rather than doing mostly solo research.


There are a couple of reasons why the U.S. government has become steadily more destructive to the liberty of the people over the years, but I will give a few of them in a second. I'd just first like to remark that you are correct in saying that it was caused by corruption for personal gain, but only to a certain extent. What I mean is that if an airplane crashes you will be correct in finding gravity as the cause for the crash (had it not been for gravity no planes would ever need crash (well, not strictly true, but close enough)). Those who wrote the constitution did not assume that there would never be any corruption nor was corruption alone in fact sufficient to turn the government created by the constitution against the ends for which it was set up.

So, on to my reasons:

1) When the constitution was ratified there was both the expectation and the practice that people were if not uniformly, certainly commonly, very interested in, and knowledgeable about politics. If you read some of the documents that have survived from that time period and the amount of work which was put into creating actual logical arguments speaks to a well informed and rational audience. A lot of the constitution was therefore based on the idea that people would hold the corrupt accountable at the ballot box, and the first time large scale corruption occurred (John Adams, Alien and Sedition acts used to keep himself in power) the people did indeed fulfill this duty and throw the politician in question out of his office. You could give any number of reasons why people are less informed now, but the fact that they are disables a lot of the safeguards against corruption which the constitution set up.

2) In a way related to the first reason, the fact that states were small in population when the constitution was created was important. If the primary actors on the national stage (state governments appointing senators etc.) are ones which you and your immediate acquaintances can have a good deal of influence in, due to a (relative) lack of competition in the political marketplace you have a lot more reason to be involved in, and informed about politics, and can also "customize" your state government to fit your needs so to speak, thereby allowing each state's people to live as they please with minimal "toes stepping." The fact of the rise of state populations dilutes power and so reduces interest in, and participation in, politics, and creates scenarios where large groups of discontents are in states ruled by those with whom they disagree, and have a choice only between staying and suffering this difficulty, and leaving the state. If these groups were each in their own state, as was far more likely with less populous states, this problem would go away.

3) When the constitution was written there was such a ting as a strong people's militia, which could be counted on to prevent by force any blatant and deleterious usurpation of power by the Federal government by the simple expedient of rebellion. With the widespread restriction of weapons, and further the increased cost of militarily effective weapons, there is no one to hold those controlling the military accountable for their usurpations.

4) When the constitution was written John Marshall had not yet been appointed to the supreme court to issue, first the politically brilliant decision to usurp the power to interpret the constitution, yet start the usurpation out with a ruling which favored all powerful and interested parties, and so experience no opposition, in Marbury vs. Madison, and then the legally devastating abomination of Muchulloch v Maryland (establishing both Federal supremacy in those areas where the Federal government had power and then affirming the doctrine that the constitution could be interpreted to imply additional powers given to the Federal government which were not printed in it, essentially delineating the limits of Federal government power at the decisions of the federal Supreme court). Sometimes there are just great men who pop up in history, and take the stage to fight against your cause and what can you do?

5) The constitution was never designed to survive a civil war. Sectional rivalry was not anticipated to be so bad that the only way to preserve the union would be for one half of the country to beat the other into submission, and expand the Federal government's powers to allow it to do the beating effectively. A government designed to support freedom should not, under normal circumstances, have to conquer those over whom it has jurisdiction, and if it can probably no longer is designed to support freedom(The exact circumstances of the war were not predictable).
  
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Jeff
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #16 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 5:10pm
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pjkon wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 4:48pm:
There are a couple of reasons why the U.S. government has become steadily more destructive to the liberty of the people over the years, but I will give a few of them in a second. I'd just first like to remark that you are correct in saying that it was caused by corruption for personal gain, but only to a certain extent. What I mean is that if an airplane crashes you will be correct in finding gravity as the cause for the crash (had it not been for gravity no planes would ever need crash (well, not strictly true, but close enough)). Those who wrote the constitution did not assume that there would never be any corruption nor was corruption alone in fact sufficient to turn the government created by the constitution against the ends for which it was set up.

So, on to my reasons:

1) When the constitution was ratified there was both the expectation and the practice that people were if not uniformly, certainly commonly, very interested in, and knowledgeable about politics. If you read some of the documents that have survived from that time period and the amount of work which was put into creating actual logical arguments speaks to a well informed and rational audience. A lot of the constitution was therefore based on the idea that people would hold the corrupt accountable at the ballot box, and the first time large scale corruption occurred (John Adams, Alien and Sedition acts used to keep himself in power) the people did indeed fulfill this duty and throw the politician in question out of his office. You could give any number of reasons why people are less informed now, but the fact that they are disables a lot of the safeguards against corruption which the constitution set up.


My impression is that people fell prey to normal human failings. Some of the early violations were by people who wanted desperately to preserve the Constitutional experiment, but didn't have enough faith in it. The Alien and Sedition laws were a prime example. A sacrifice of freedom of conscience and speech to preserve the nation. Or so they saw it.
Some of the empire building was probably motivated by a desire to see the U.S. grow even richer and stronger. Some territorial acquisition was to try to get more free states- or more slave states, which was part of the motivation for the Civil War, most of the rest being supplied by anti-slavery sentiment, which elected people to office that the slave states were sure would eliminate slavery.
Then we got into the 'progressive' era, where the Constitution was seen as an impediment to the power of government, which power was needed to make society and the world better. "Progress Through Tyranny!". And yes, if you give the people bread and circuses, you can do most anything else you want to.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #17 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 6:52pm
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Jeff,

Yeah, it kind of convoluted logic regarding recommending a good book when I often can't find the motivation to read.  But maybe one good book will spur the interest.  It happens once every so often.

Your point about WMD's for sale to governments is a good one.  They're usually not used (yes I know they are every once in awhile in the Middle East among others) but it's still rare and on a relatively small scale.  And you don't need to remind me about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Fortunately nucs have not been deployed since.

My concern is that if nuclear weapons were for sale to the general public you could have this scenario: wealthy crackpot (Powerball winner?) buys one and detonates it in downtown Chicago because of some schizophrenic psychotic voice in his head telling him that the city must be vanquished for the good of the earth.  In light of such scenarios, fanciful as they are but nonetheless conceivable, should these weapons really be for sale?

Good discussion on the fall from grace in American government by the way.
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #18 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:25pm
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Welcome to the forum.

By a libertarian society, I'm going to take that to mean a society with no nation. Everyone has their own private property, but there is no central authority to rule over the people. Now, to your question about other nations attacking, think about incentives. Who would you rather concur: me and my property or the country of Germany? A ruling class creates a massive incentive for initiating force. In order to concur the entire territory, the intruder must only takeover the few in the ruling class. In a libertarian society, the intruder would have to takeover each individual property owner.

The decentralization of power has been empirically verified to be successful. For example, Switzerland probably has the most decentralized military in the world at the moment, and they haven't gone to war in ~400 years. When Ireland was not composed of a government but individual property owners, it lasted a thousand years. Even after that, it literally took the largest force in the world (Great Britain) to concur them, and that was after they concurred most of the governments they could.

If you don't want government invaders, don't establish a massive centralized agency that has the special privilege to rule over an entire territory it never voluntarily acquired or homesteaded. Don't lend the invaders the convenience of only having to concur one entity in order to acquire an entire country.

As for intro to libertarian stuff, I recommend this video if you don't feel like reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uCP0QY8vUo

If you do want to read, I always recommend For a New Liberty: a Libertarian Manifesto as a first: https://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf

Thanks for coming on the forum to intellectually explore the libertarian options. I hope you stick with it and become a full-fledged libertarian.
  

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Tom Palven
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #19 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:01pm
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freeforall wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:20pm:
Is there any one book that can help me understand jurisprudence in an anarchocapitalistic society? I always find that confusing. How about weapons of mass destruction for sale on the free market?


I'd recommend For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard. It's short, easy reading, and to the point. You can probably get it real cheap used from Amazon.
  
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