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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet? (Read 6215 times)
Crystallas
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #20 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:57pm
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Tommy Palven wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:01pm:
I'd recommend For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard. It's short, easy reading, and to the point. You can probably get it real cheap used from Amazon.


Or go to mises.org, where it's a free download.
  
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JW
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #21 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:59pm
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Crystallas wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:57pm:
Or go to mises.org, where it's a free download.


Web link: http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp

Pdf:  https://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf

Summary:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_a_New_Liberty
  
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #22 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:42pm
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freeforall wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 11:10pm:
Can a large powerful nation on the earth today, let's say the US, 'convert' to a libertarian society while no other large nation does?


Just my opinion. The best way to do this is to engage the opposite of socialism. Where socialist states engage in "nationalizing" industries, a libertarian state would engage in "de-nationaliziing" them.

Taking the 2015 budget for example:
https://static.nationalpriorities.org/images/fb101/2014/presidents-proposed-disc...

Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/mxfbs7n

NOTE: This chart does not show fixed spending, which is largely Social Security and Medicare.

It would seem obvious that we can privatize Social Security, since it is already a trust fund. Same with Medicare. However, doing so will not change the cost to each person, only shift it from a public organization to private ones.

The biggest savings would come from simply not engaging in so many wars. War operations and weapons development are the largest sector of government spending that is NOT tied to an individual trust fund (like Social Security) but only draws from general fund (all tax revenue).

Outside of those three programs (SS, Medicare, Defense) the rest is chump change on a federal level.

On a state level, here's California's spending:

http://www.cbp.org/pdfs/2010/CaliforniaBudgetBites/100128_spending-large.png

Obviously Education is the largest portion, and is ripe for "de-state-izing". Voucherizing the schools and colleges would be a good way to decentralize them. The problem here is to allocate the burden for people who have 5 kids and people who have 0 kids. Obviously, people who have 0 kids benefit from schools in that the little munchkins are not so likely to be street thugs if they go to school. But the people with 5 kids shouldn't have a free ride for reckless breeding.

Third is health and human services. According to Massachusetts, 25% of government cost for health care could be eliminated by having end-of-life discussions with elderly patients. While some patients will opt for maximum care at public expense, every patient that opts for reduced end of life care will save the taxpayer money. End of life discussions were originally a Republican proposal notably suggested by Gingrich.

So for sheer spending reduction; decreasing the number of wars, and helping elderly people make smart end of life choices have the potential of reducing the US tax burden by 20% or so.

Another 50% could be cost-shifted to private organizations for social security, health care and education.

The remaining 25% is everything else.

There is a lot of appeal to simply starting over; somehow creating a new utopian state or city that is not burdened by past the decisions of past generations. The question is how long it would take before utopia develops their own bloated habits and entitlements.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #23 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:26am
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Josh & Tom,

Thanks for the Rothbard book recommendation.  I have some time off coming up so I'll read it then.

To follow up though on your point about a lack of central authority decreasing the incentive for a foreign attack, couldn't the possession of a valuable resource by a populace with no strong defense be enough of a reason for attack, like Iraq did to Kuwait for its oil in Persian Gulf pt.1 starring Papa Bush?
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Jeff
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #24 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 7:29am
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Josh wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:25pm:
By a libertarian society, I'm going to take that to mean a society with no nation. Everyone has their own private property, but there is no central authority to rule over the people.   

The U.S., when it's national government mostly respected the Constitution, was the most  libertarian society the world has ever seen. Maybe the fact that the Constitution makes the government subservient to the people had something to do with this? Other than the "no nation" bit, what you describe is the U.S., or would be if we could get our government to stay within the bounds we set for it.
  

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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #25 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 10:14am
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Getting back to an earlier point - should nuclear weapons really be on sale to John Q Public in a libertarian free market society?  If you say yes, please say why.  You realize, the mainstream statists out there would say we're completely nuts if we advocate such a notion. Tongue
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #26 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:21am
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freeforall wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 10:14am:
Getting back to an earlier point - should nuclear weapons really be on sale to John Q Public in a libertarian free market society? If you say yes, please say why. You realize, the mainstream statists out there would say we're completely nuts if we advocate such a notion. Tongue

SHOULD they be?  No, it would clearly be bad to have nuclear weapons in anyone's hands.  We would not want that.  Should we use FORCE to prevent said weapons from being sold to the public?  No.  Could people be prevented from buying and selling nukes by non-aggressive means?  Probably yes.  Would it be possible to deal with a few nukes floating around in private hands without some kind of disaster occurring?  Probably, but it would be horrendously expensive.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #27 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:27am
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What are non-aggressive means of preventing people from buying them?
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Crystallas
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #28 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:34am
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freeforall wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 11:27am:
What are non-aggressive means of preventing people from buying them?


Whoa whoa whoa. Don't confuse the non-aggression principle, with meaning everything is not-aggressive. It's a common mistake made. Now, I'm guessing that is what you are linking, with terms here.

But I suppose you are not using the NAP, and simply asking a question unrelated to libertarianism(well, unrelated to the NAP directly at least). And then the answer would be applying reason and convincing others that it is not in their best interest to do so. Prevention might be highly improbable, but reduction may be realistic. Escalation, force, and feuding with others in disagreement doesn't have a very good track record. You could just as easily ask, what is a non-aggressive way to remove arms from the military of those who are perceived to be enemies.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #29 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:13pm
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I admit I don't follow.

When I used the term 'non-aggressive' in that post I was just repeating what the other poster had stated, not necessarily in terms of the NAP as you surmised.

But I do have questions/issues with the NAP as it seems a vague concept with a lot of wiggle room.  Committing 'aggression' (another term I am troubled with in libertarianism as it seems just about anything [i.e. making kids sit in a classroom when they don't want to] is a form of aggression) can only be in defense, not offense.  Can't a military act of offense be part of a greater plan of defense (i.e. Israel attacking the armies that had amassed on its borders in 1967)?

When you say 'convince others not to do so' in regards to purchasing a nuclear weapon there is an implied social relationship with someone concerned for his/her safety and the would-be purchaser.  What if such a relationship is either ineffective or non-existent? 

It seems to me that there's a bit too much at stake here for the sake of purity in principle to allow this to occur.
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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