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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet? (Read 5968 times)
Sammael7
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #40 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:53am
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I'm not even sure if they could even have a libertarian island.  The only way to achieve perfect freedom in this world is to live alone.  Then you are perfectly free to do whatever you wish, the more people that cluster together tends to bring with it more pacts and rules to govern how they interact with each other.

People talk about going back to the constitution, as if the constitution was ever something that people ever interpreted the same way in all areas.  The creators of the constitution disagreed over the meaning and scope of the government, those disagreements were there from the founding.  When someone says we need to get back to the constitution, they are saying THEIR interpretation of what the constitution says and means and allows.

http://accordingtomysources.blogspot.com/2012/07/originalists-assume-founding-fa...

<--Not a libertarian, obviously.
  
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Alan Jones
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #41 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:46am
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:53am:
When someone says we need to get back to the constitution, they are saying THEIR interpretation of what the constitution says and means and allows.

You say that as if the constitution is written in some mystical code instead of plain English intended to be understood perfectly by anyone with an average or higher IQ.

This "subject to interpretation" propaganda is intended to deceive those with below average IQ's and those who are too lazy to bother reading the constitution (ie the vast majority of Americans). It has nothing to do with the rest of us.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #42 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:45am
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Sammael7 wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 3:53am:
People talk about going back to the constitution, as if the constitution was ever something that people ever interpreted the same way in all areas. The creators of the constitution disagreed over the meaning and scope of the government, those disagreements were there from the founding. When someone says we need to get back to the constitution, they are saying THEIR interpretation of what the constitution says and means and allows.


If you're in any doubt about the meaning of the Constitution, you can consult the Federalist Papers and the debates on ratification that took place in State legislatures. Reading Supreme Court opinions written prior to the 'progressive' era will also help make things clear.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #43 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:56pm
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Ok Josh.  *uncle! Uncle!  I give up!*. You are an expert master debater.  Wink

No insult meant.  You provide great logic. 

May I put forth one last item for discussion?  Not really an argument, just an observation, one you and everyone else are well aware of.  There are no large 1st world libertarian societies.  If there are so many advantages (or are there?) why aren't we seeing them?  Are we en route to them?  Or are humans just not capable of living as such?
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Crystallas
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #44 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:53pm
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freeforall wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:56pm:
May I put forth one last item for discussion? Not really an argument, just an observation, one you and everyone else are well aware of. There are no large 1st world libertarian societies. If there are so many advantages (or are there?) why aren't we seeing them? Are we en route to them? Or are humans just not capable of living as such?


As far as advantages, the more free humans are, the more advancement we have seen. The issue is about control. Do you control your own life, do you own your own self? That is the question. If you truly believe that you own yourself, then everything makes sense. Take the NAP and learn from it, as a guideline of how it is possible. A libertarian society is a false premise drawn up in the minds of those who do not understand libertarianism, or maybe by those who do not care to understand what non-utopian means.

Some suggest the early US was an example, but this is false. The early US formed a government that turned a blind eye to their claims, destroyed natives and heavily violated humans in a way that is in complete conflict with the NAP. But you may see it referenced, because a few in that time frame of the founders did have some advocacy in their words for what would have been compatible with the NAP(if they knew of the NAP back then like we understand it today, well, *some of us understand it*, while others continue to evade studying it and skip to applying their own best guess). Among the closest seen to libertarianism, and the greatest single nation advancement in recorded history occurred because of it. You also have the Roman and Greek empires, which were the results of free marketism. Again, not libertarian, but following the details in full, you can see the great benefit. England grew out of poverty when accepting simple facts, that mankind does have basic human rights. The Renaissance was a period of tolerance, when facing a collapse, and rarely were any laws enforced because the sentiment of the people(and those who enforced such laws) rejected the very rule that dug their premature graves. You can find many examples through out history to why the freedom model has had incredible results(many times against popular belief and the 'educated' hypotheses), and many examples of why the control model has not.

The argument is essentially a witch guilt test. By asking to taste a sample of a cake, before that cake is allowed to be made. When all we have are examples of ingredient combinations to go off of, to demonstrate the concepts and an idea. Think about that. A witch guilt test(if you're a witch, you'll float, if you're not a witch, you'll drown).

Thus why it's important to understand what non-utopian means. Because none of which is stated proof that libertarianism works, by some claim. But proof that the control model does not work best, because history is rich with examples where this is, instead, false.
  
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freeforall
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #45 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:31pm
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"A libertarian society is a false premise drawn up in the minds of those who do not understand libertarianism, or maybe by those who do not care to understand what non-utopian means."

Alright you lost me there.  Are we criticizing government for the sake of a cerebral illusion?
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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JW
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #46 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:37pm
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Crystallas wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:53pm:
freeforall wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:56pm:
There are no large 1st world libertarian societies.  If there are so many advantages (or are there?) why aren't we seeing them?  Are we en route to them?  Or are humans just not capable of living as such?

A libertarian society is a false premise drawn up in the minds of those who do not understand libertarianism, or maybe by those who do not care to understand what non-utopian means.


Stefen Molyneux addresses this:
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/04/the_question_libertarians_just_cant_answer/

Here is Molyneux's reply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkcY7SVBG-4
  
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Crystallas
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #47 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:04pm
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freeforall wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:31pm:
"A libertarian society is a false premise drawn up in the minds of those who do not understand libertarianism, or maybe by those who do not care to understand what non-utopian means."

Alright you lost me there. Are we criticizing government for the sake of a cerebral illusion?


What I wrote in the context provided, and the point you question is not a criticism of government. There is no way I can post a way for those who do not grasp non-utopian concepts, to suddenly understand them. This is an exercise of the mind, and more importantly of practicing observation and not operation.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #48 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 7:47am
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freeforall wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:56pm:
Ok Josh. *uncle! Uncle! I give up!*. You are an expert master debater. Wink

No insult meant. You provide great logic.

May I put forth one last item for discussion? Not really an argument, just an observation, one you and everyone else are well aware of. There are no large 1st world libertarian societies. If there are so many advantages (or are there?) why aren't we seeing them? Are we en route to them? Or are humans just not capable of living as such?

It's really difficult to get governments to give up their "Sovereign Power". The "elites" just can't bring themselves to believe that 'ordinary' people in a free society with the rule of law to protect everyone's life, liberty and property can possibly create anything good.
Humans are most certainly capable of creating a good society, if they are permitted economic and personal freedom, and have a government that protects their rights.
Getting rid of bad governments is the problem.
  
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Josh
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Re: Hello. And how to create a libertarian planet?
Reply #49 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 10:01am
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freeforall wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 6:56pm:
Ok Josh. *uncle! Uncle! I give up!*. You are an expert master debater. Wink

No insult meant. You provide great logic.

"Master debater"... say that 5 times fast. Tongue Don't look at it as "giving up" -- look at it as accepting a new principle and learning a new way of thinking about a particular subject. If you find ways to maneuver around and deny arguments, you learn nothing. I appreciate your honesty and I thank you for taking interest in these matters.

Quote:
May I put forth one last item for discussion? Not really an argument, just an observation, one you and everyone else are well aware of. There are no large 1st world libertarian societies. If there are so many advantages (or are there?) why aren't we seeing them? Are we en route to them? Or are humans just not capable of living as such?

There's very good benefits of a state for those in the ruling class. It's often estimated that it takes about six months of solid research before converting to anarcho-capitalism, and that's if you already consider yourself a libertarian. It took me about a year. It took my friend about two days (is he superhuman? I don't know). In any event, you have to have a strong interest in the matter, and you also need the Internet. It's the only affordable source of accurate information that is not tangled with the government. How many people are willing to do ~6 months of solid research on the Internet to figure this stuff out? People vote and watch debate but they don't care about this stuff *that* much. Besides, most "research" people do on the Internet is to find whatever they can in order to confirm their own bias. I'm optimistic about the future but no change is going to happen any time soon that I predict.
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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