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Jeff
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Re: all current problems of big government predicted by Bastiat
Reply #10 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 3:40pm
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Josh wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 6:51pm:
Bastiat's argument for natural law:

"Cause God."

That's as good a reason as I've heard. Do you have a better one?
We're libertarians here, we take individual rights as a given, no matter how we happen to have them.
  

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Jeff
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Re: all current problems of big government predicted by Bastiat
Reply #11 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 3:42pm
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Josh wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 12:41pm:
His first principle from which he derives all other principles concluding natural law, is a derivate of "because God put it there." He does not offer any proof of rights; instead, he simply insists that God did it, and then goes off from there. It's a terrible argument to make.

Josh, why don't you prove that I don't have rights. For instance the right to liberty. I know I have it. Prove I don't.
  

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Re: all current problems of big government predicted by Bastiat
Reply #12 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 6:16pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 1:31am:
He was right with his observation with 1850's U.S..  Im just saying its unlikely he would make that same observation were he alive today. Especially if he learned that, in 2012, a rural Oregon man was sentenced to 30 days in jail and over $1,500 in fines because he had three reservoirs on his own property to collect and use rainwater.

this actually happened.




I agree with you there. 

Jeff, I don't see how it is stupid to ask for clarification about whether it is being stated that the evidence for the opinion's veracity in context, or the underlying fact changed over time.
  
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Re: all current problems of big government predicted by Bastiat
Reply #13 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 8:35pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 1:31am:
In 2012, a rural Oregon man was sentenced to 30 days in jail and over $1,500 in fines because he had three reservoirs on his own property to collect and use rainwater.


To be correct, the man was sentence to a permit violation for blocking the natural flow of water through his property.  At least some of the water he was collecting was from upstream of his property.  He was aggressing against the people downstream by interfering with the natural flow.  He used earthen dams, which also endangered people downstream. 

The 30 day jail time came about because he refused to obey the judgement that he remove the dangerous earthen dams, and restore the watershed.  He still had the full right to collect and store the rainwater from his own property.  Just not the water flowing through.

Isn't it natural law that someone can't block the flow of a resource (water) even though it goes through his property?

What is the appropriate punishment for someone who impacts their neighbors in this way?  (He was told to remove the dams).

Once "natural law" is applied as a judgement to someone for aggression, what punishment is appropriate if they don't take reasonable action?  Is 30 days in jail appropriate here?



  
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Re: all current problems of big government predicted by Bastiat
Reply #14 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:53am
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pjkon wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 6:16pm:
 

Jeff, I don't see how it is stupid to ask for clarification about whether it is being stated that the evidence for the opinion's veracity in context, or the underlying fact changed over time.

Does it make any difference at all where our rights come from?
I have no idea at all why I have a right to live as a free man, or where that right came from, but I believe it to be true.
Anyone who thinks I don't have such a right is welcome to make rational arguments attempting to prove that my right to liberty doesn't in fact exist, which arguments must include the idea that someone else has a 'right' to make me their slave or serf or subject. Where does anyone get the right to deny the rights of others is a pertinent question. Where rights to life liberty and property came from doesn't matter at all. They exist. They can be denied, abridged and infringed, but they are still there, inherent in every person.
  

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Re: all current problems of big government predicted by Bastiat
Reply #15 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 4:10am
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JW wrote on Sep 10th, 2014 at 8:35pm:
To be correct, the man was sentence to a permit violation for blocking the natural flow of water through his property.  At least some of the water he was collecting was from upstream of his property.  He was aggressing against the people downstream by interfering with the natural flow.  He used earthen dams, which also endangered people downstream. 

The 30 day jail time came about because he refused to obey the judgement that he remove the dangerous earthen dams, and restore the watershed.  He still had the full right to collect and store the rainwater from his own property.  Just not the water flowing through.

Isn't it natural law that someone can't block the flow of a resource (water) even though it goes through his property?

What is the appropriate punishment for someone who impacts their neighbors in this way?  (He was told to remove the dams).

Once "natural law" is applied as a judgement to someone for aggression, what punishment is appropriate if they don't take reasonable action?  Is 30 days in jail appropriate here?




Okie dokie.

You did better research than I.  He was "diverting" the runoff.  Fair enough.

Let's toss that incident.

Please qualify this transgression on (Mark Miller's) property rights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6jjxg8f3Gq0

Apparently, he's a "big fish" and qualifies for the frying pan according to Boyd Clayton (Utah Deputy State Engineer).

Just another Big-Government-Run-Amok story.

I dont fault Clayton for swinging his mighty State-Death-Hammer. He's just doing his (government) job. These are BAD laws and only the the people are to blame for allowing their legislators to pass them.

  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Re: all current problems of big government predicted by Bastiat
Reply #16 - Sep 14th, 2014 at 12:27pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 4:10am:
Okie dokie.

You did better research than I.  He was "diverting" the runoff.  Fair enough.

Let's toss that incident.

Please qualify this transgression on (Mark Miller's) property rights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6jjxg8f3Gq0

Apparently, he's a "big fish" and qualifies for the frying pan according to Boyd Clayton (Utah Deputy State Engineer).

Just another Big-Government-Run-Amok story.

I dont fault Clayton for swinging his mighty State-Death-Hammer. He's just doing his (government) job. These are BAD laws and only the the people are to blame for allowing their legislators to pass them.


Utah learned it from the national government. It's a reversion to the ancient Rights of King's, who claimed to own everything, the land, the water, the wild animals, the trees in the forest, and the people. It doesn't apply in a free country. Everyone has first right to the water that falls on their land, and first right of use of water that flows through their land. or past their land. No government in the U.S. owns the land or water.
For the most part, these aren't even laws passed by elected legislators, they are 'regulations' written by unelected bureaucrats.
  

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