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The Opposition
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A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Sep 15th, 2014 at 1:46am
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Busybodying.

I have no idea why this is so, but it is so. As the government claims more power, people get twisted. They nose into the business of other people. The more jobs the State claims, the less likely people become to let the State do its job. They call the police at the drop of a pin. They won't stay out of other peoples' business. They begin to take joy in this.

I'm wondering if libertarians can offer insight as to why this is.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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freeforall
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #1 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 9:01am
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If it trends towards socialism then you have those who want to earn their equal paycheck by doing the minimum work.  Those that work (or want to work) harder complain about the guy doing less than they.  In a more privatized setting those who work harder theoretically earn more, which equals less busybodying/complaining.
  

Give me my freedom for as long as I please.  All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. - Blood, Sweat & Tears
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Jeff
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #2 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 5:15pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 1:46am:
Busybodying.

I have no idea why this is so, but it is so. As the government claims more power, people get twisted. They nose into the business of other people. The more jobs the State claims, the less likely people become to let the State do its job. They call the police at the drop of a pin. They won't stay out of other peoples' business. They begin to take joy in this.

I'm wondering if libertarians can offer insight as to why this is.

I'm more interested in knowing why you support totalitarianism.
Slavery always warps people's behavior.
  
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #3 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 9:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 15th, 2014 at 1:46am:
Busybodying.

I have no idea why this is so, but it is so. As the government claims more power, people get twisted. They nose into the business of other people. The more jobs the State claims, the less likely people become to let the State do its job. They call the police at the drop of a pin. They won't stay out of other peoples' business. They begin to take joy in this.

I'm wondering if libertarians can offer insight as to why this is.

Is this really true? I thought busy-bodying was fairly normal. If anything, I think it's more a productive of diversity than totalitarianism. As community continuity breaks down and people stop trusting each other, they get suspicious…which happens when you have large groups of unassimilated aliens move into an area.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #4 - Sep 16th, 2014 at 1:03am
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It's less a matter of suspicion and more a matter of yes-it-is-my-business.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #5 - Sep 16th, 2014 at 3:15pm
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Quote:
Is this really true? I thought busy-bodying was fairly normal. If anything, I think it's more a productive of diversity than totalitarianism. As community continuity breaks down and people stop trusting each other, they get suspicious…which happens when you have large groups of unassimilated aliens move into an area.

Busy bodies tell other people what to do, or put pressure on them to conform to their ideas by spreading gossip.
Government busy bodies write regulations with the force of law. Or pretend that because they are "First Lady" of the whole entire Nation, people should do what they say.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #6 - Sep 16th, 2014 at 6:23pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2014 at 3:15pm:
Busy bodies tell other people what to do, or put pressure on them to conform to their ideas by spreading gossip.


These are dominant people unwilling to take risks associated with dominance. So they go "passive" instead.

Perhaps they see the extensive power of the government and wish to exploit it to their own ends. "Oh I bet he's breaking a law." is likely to be a good guess, no matter who he is. It happens because of powerful government, but it can even happen to children whose parents make many rules. They become tattletales.

It bothers me because it amounts to so much wasted resources, and I don't think people even really get into too much trouble for constant police calling. A powerful State can't take the attitude of, "Oh yeah right. Sure they've got a meth lab." with every call. What they can do is punish people who report falsities and waste their resources.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #7 - Sep 16th, 2014 at 6:46pm
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Several months ago I saw the results of a test for honesty. It tested two groups of Germans, one composed of people who had been raised in East Germany under communism, the other who had been raised in West Germany in relative freedom.
The results showed that the East Germans were far more likely to lie.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #8 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2014 at 6:46pm:
Several months ago I saw the results of a test for honesty. It tested two groups of Germans, one composed of people who had been raised in East Germany under communism, the other who had been raised in West Germany in relative freedom.
The results showed that the East Germans were far more likely to lie.


I do not doubt this is true but science requires a little more depth than simply concluding that communism makes people likely to lie.

I agree with the general vibe on these forums that socialism can cause lack of prosperity. Lack of prosperity can cause desperation. Desperation can bring out dishonesty. So can having so many of the wrong rules that Average Bob is breaking one or more of them at all times.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: A Peculiar Consequence of Totalitarianism
Reply #9 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:07pm:
I do not doubt this is true but science requires a little more depth than simply concluding that communism makes people likely to lie.

I agree with the general vibe on these forums that socialism can cause lack of prosperity. Lack of prosperity can cause desperation. Desperation can bring out dishonesty. So can having so many of the wrong rules that Average Bob is breaking one or more of them at all times.

In fact, the conclusion of the scientific study was that people raised and living under socialist governments are more likely to lie because it's necessary to lie all the time under such conditions of government. Since it's necessary to lie, and lying sometimes pays off big, people become habituated to lying and begin to do it unconsciously.
  
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