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Land of Freedom
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What Libertarians need to do
Sep 17th, 2014 at 7:38pm
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Libertarians need to explain to people that freedom brings prosperity to the most people; and that socialism not only takes freedom away but impoverishes people.

Any ideas at the best ways to do this? What other things do you feel need to be explained better?
  

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rnewton
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #1 - Sep 17th, 2014 at 8:21pm
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Land of Freedom wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 7:38pm:
Libertarians need to explain to people that freedom brings prosperity to the most people; and that socialism not only takes freedom away but impoverishes people.

Any ideas at the best ways to do this? What other things do you feel need to be explained better?


It is hard to explain and covert/not-so-covert converts are very ingrained in key places of society. Richard Maybury does a fair job for children. Get enough of them when young and the powers that the flea packs can't suck all the blood out of society.

With adults, the best way to explain the detriments of socialism is the very painful results. But unfortunately only the most recent ones work, because socialists/progressives/whathaveyou are experts in chameleon actions to cloak and camouflage what they stand for as well as what the result were with their special blue ribbon commissions. But that buys some time with them scrambling.

In the meantime, technology of David Brin's sousveillance, etc, widens the avenue of what must eventually come when the termites deep inside the foundations prove what they are once again, but this time in utterly massive proportions.

Or so I guess. Not the best of worlds, but that is the situation. Biding time and Tough Love.
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #2 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 10:59am
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The term "socialism" sounds good, warm and fuzzy, safe and protective.
I like to call it what it is, redistribution of wealth by government. It's taking the bread from the mouths of those who earned it, and giving it to whoever is currently in favor with the government. It's taking money from working people who are trying to support themselves and their families and giving it to the Export Import 'Bank' so it can go mainly to Boeing and GE.
The Founders called it "leveling", saw it as a dangerous impulse, and designed the Constitution to prevent it.
  
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JW
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #3 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 12:12pm
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Land of Freedom wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 7:38pm:
Libertarians need to explain to people that freedom brings prosperity to the most people;


Good message. What libertarians need to do is establish this with credibility. Doing, not just talking.

Land of Freedom wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 7:38pm:
socialism not only takes freedom away but impoverishes people


Probably best to define your terms. What kind of socialism? Marxism? Democratic socialism? Does Obamacare impoverish someone who was ineligible for insurance and bankrupt before it, and now can keep income after it?

If you are bringing up a straw man, which is common, do you really think it adds to your credibility? Don't you just give your point away by allowing people to grab it rather than your main point?

Land of Freedom wrote on Sep 17th, 2014 at 7:38pm:
Any ideas at the best ways to do this? What other things do you feel need to be explained better?


IMO what libertarians need to do is establish some organization or place where libertarianism works. Or maybe establish a case where a libertarian policy was adopted, and that it worked.

Until then, it's all armchair philosophy with no meaning for the real world.

  
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Jeff
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #4 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:37pm
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JW wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 12:12pm:
Probably best to define your terms. What kind of socialism? Marxism? Democratic socialism? Does Obamacare impoverish someone who was ineligible for insurance and bankrupt before it, and now can keep income after it?

If you are bringing up a straw man, which is common, do you really think it adds to your credibility? Don't you just give your point away by allowing people to grab it rather than your main point?


Mr. Moderator, Land of Freedom, we have to put up with this sort of thing all the time. Please, answer him. Thank you.
  
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JW
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #5 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 5:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:37pm:
Mr. Moderator, Land of Freedom, we have to put up with this sort of thing all the time. Please, answer him. Thank you.


Jeff, I respect your views. I apologize for you finding me annoying. I truly want to make libertarianism work in my life. 

Having now read something like 15 different books on libertarianism in the last month, I can see that I've lived in a libertarian environment more than most people, and also have belonged to some freedom loving organizations.  It's just that now that I work to put the pieces in order, I find they still don't fit. I'm still seeking something that shows how it would work in real life.

Do you think that libertarianism can be expressed without resorting to logical fallacies?

Or is the dependence on fallacies, like making a straw man argument by blaming 'progressives', essential to the libertarian philosophy?
  
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Libertas
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #6 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 5:47pm
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Every libertarian must have the courage to speak and to engage in publics affairs and politics.Are multitudinous libertarians don't do that because many of as do something else with our free time and other problems don't means to much.But when we wait to many time to receive a privat or public service(and not very quality,and more time forced by law or social situation,determined to required this service) affect our free time who can use in other scope or possibility to be more faster in achieving the goals.
  
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Crystallas
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #7 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 6:01pm
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Everyone does what they can. There is no one way about it. Otherwise you might wind up with a million Shiva's confusing the populist views on what libertarianism defines.
  
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rnewton
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #8 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 10:47pm
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Crystallas wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 6:01pm:
Everyone does what they can. There is no one way about it. Otherwise you might wind up with a million Shiva's confusing the populist views on what libertarianism defines.


If you mean Shiva people disruptive due to misunderstanding the idea, sure.

But the bane of Libertarians tends to be a jazz ensemble mode of doing things. Others, rightly or wrongly, often enough stick together long enough to get some traction, especially statists of the socialist stripes. Speaking of socialism/communism, that is one of the ways their persistence has paid off in a sorry excuse of socialist history -- whose ruins still litter many a country -- along with often pruning away the more obvious fringe with an occasional ice pick to a Trotsky's brain. No, I do not advocate anything vaguely or remotely like that to modify volition in the name of cohesion.

Yet in my time, I have directly come face to face or email with some of the higher reaches of libertarianism in politics. One nice guy, a candidate for US senator in a well placed libertarian state a decade ago, strongly advocated a free sovereign state in the middle of the ocean, floating on the air, in the next five to fifteen years.

I knew him personally. His ideas against income distribution were much more central than that, but often libertarians have wacky ideas, and worst of all are too public with them.

Where should a line be then drawn, and how should a common plank be formed about income redistribution? All going to their individual drummer seems to me a disastrous policy in the real world, even when faced with a many sided, seductive notion like income redistribution.

The issue to me is not seeing the situation with the greatest clarity with outsiders, but rather to put a very real dent in the gears of the ugly process. (To insiders, an opposite way of finding ways around the situation, a la Harry Browne's How To Live Free In An Unfree World is encouraged and sugested on a most individual path, because, as Harry says, diversity make it all but impossible to shut down so diverse pattern of loopholes.)

How am I wrong, then, in regards to handling socialist statism? Unless something serious is missed, it would appear an obvious conclusion. Comments are welcome.
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Libertarians need to do
Reply #9 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 11:46am
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JW wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 5:04pm:
Jeff, I respect your views. I apologize for you finding me annoying. I truly want to make libertarianism work in my life.

Having now read something like 15 different books on libertarianism in the last month, I can see that I've lived in a libertarian environment more than most people, and also have belonged to some freedom loving organizations. It's just that now that I work to put the pieces in order, I find they still don't fit. I'm still seeking something that shows how it would work in real life.

Do you think that libertarianism can be expressed without resorting to logical fallacies?

Or is the dependence on fallacies, like making a straw man argument by blaming 'progressives', essential to the libertarian philosophy?

All types of socialism subtract from the ability of people to create wealth, so they all cause poverty in some degree.
A very libertarian society was created by the U.S. Constitution, and it existed, with more individual liberty than the world ever knew, before or since, well into the 20th Century.
'Progressives' hate individual liberty. They are not a "straw man" but actual enemies of liberty, classical liberalism/libertarianism. To the extent that they control the government of any country, they destroy liberty and prosperity and progress. If they have total control and exercise it, you get Maoist China or the Stalinist U.S.S.R., or Venezuela.
Classical liberals believed, as do modern libertarians, that societies work best when individual liberty and property rights are respected and enforced, when people are free to make their own decisions about their lives and the disposition of their property. There are no logical fallacies in that belief. Neither is it a logical fallacy to believe, as did the classical liberals, that strictly limited government is a potentially dangerous but necessary evil, required to ensure that individual lives, individual rights, individual property and individual liberty are protected and preserved.
  
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