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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) To all libertarians (Read 2518 times)
The Opposition
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #10 - Sep 11th, 2015 at 11:35pm
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Alan Jones wrote on Sep 11th, 2015 at 12:19pm:
You know that's not true. Groups exist, they just don't have separate sentience.

Sure, if we discovered that that thin layer of skin was sentient and itself committed the deed.


Apply a little twist of lemon to this scenario, and add the fantastical premise that each cell is sentient. You'd have a problem with punishing the criminal. It would still be absolutely necessary, and it couldn't be done. My issue isn't with who you are punishing, but who you can't punish.

Alan Jones wrote on Sep 11th, 2015 at 12:19pm:
Judging from the above, you're trying very hard not to.  Grin


Look at that fat guy trying so hard not to get up. See all his struggling and jiggling? He's trying very, very hard to remain stationary. That's what all the fuss is about, you see. He has to try as hard as he possibly can to stay still. If he tried any less than that, he'd float away!

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"Uncuck" "the" "right". Not rocket science.


If the cuckoo isn't committing aggression, isn't it aggression to act against the cuckoos? They get ahead, and we may hate this, but we may not act against them.

I think I may see what my problem with libertarianism has been all along: I've been making a whopping presumption that libertarianism is subject to fairness. But things should not be fair. If you want fairness, try the Marxist forum down the street. Libertarianism is about the NAP and property. If I discard the presumption of fairness, and accept that the cuckoo exploits a legitimate loophole in the NAP to get ahead, I must yield to the cuckoo, who has acted within the rules. "That's not fair," is a socialist's objection, not a capitalist's.

Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2015 at 3:47pm:
There's a technical psychiatric term for what's wrong with you, and I'm trying to dredge it up from my time at college,... I remember, "crappity smacked in the Head".


I never said I wasn't insane.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Dissident Right
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #11 - Sep 12th, 2015 at 10:12am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2015 at 11:35pm:
If the cuckoo isn't committing aggression, isn't it aggression to act against the cuckoos? They get ahead, and we may hate this, but we may not act against them.

That isn't what aggression is.

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I think I may see what my problem with libertarianism has been all along: I've been making a whopping presumption that libertarianism is subject to fairness.

That's fairly whopping, yes.

Quote:
But things should not be fair.

It's not a question of "should" or "shouldn't". Things aren't fair. Any rational political philosophy will at least accept the way things are.

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Libertarianism is about the NAP and property.

Correct.

Quote:
If I discard the presumption of fairness, and accept that the cuckoo exploits a legitimate loophole in the NAP to get ahead, I must yield to the cuckoo, who has acted within the rules.

No, you can "exploit" the "loophole" right back. Because it's neither an exploit nor a loophole. It's working as intended. No actual aggression, no actual harm.

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"That's not fair," is a socialist's objection, not a capitalist's.

It's the objection of the insane.
  
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Jeff
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #12 - Sep 12th, 2015 at 3:40pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2015 at 11:35pm:
I think I may see what my problem with libertarianism has been all along: I've been making a whopping presumption that libertarianism is subject to fairness.

Your problem is that you're a tribal minded bonehead.

Libertarians believe in equality under the law, equal opportunity for all, equal justice for all, the fundamental common rights of humanity for everyone, protection of everyone's life, liberty and property...
Libertarians believe in the most fair system of government and economics and human rights ever imagined.

Your turn. Describe your idea of a "fair" system of government and economics.
  
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Alan Jones
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #13 - Sep 12th, 2015 at 9:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2015 at 11:35pm:
Apply a little twist of lemon to this scenario, and add the fantastical premise that each cell is sentient. You'd have a problem with punishing the criminal.

Yes, and if we couldn't separate them, we'd have to rethink our political philosophy to match that lemon-twisted natural law. Fortunately, we're not in that position.
  
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Jeff
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #14 - Sep 13th, 2015 at 5:14pm
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Quote:
"Uncuck" "the" "right". Not rocket science.

You mean it's just another racist call to action for "conservatives" who want to fight to preserve their "way of life"? The "right"? Isn't that you?
Are you feeling all "cucked" up?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #15 - Sep 14th, 2015 at 1:16am
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Alan Jones wrote on Sep 12th, 2015 at 9:08pm:
Yes, and if we couldn't separate them, we'd have to rethink our political philosophy to match that lemon-twisted natural law. Fortunately, we're not in that position.


Yes, that's very fortunate. Although a philosophy that punishment is necessary rather than moral doesn't need to be adjusted. The most advanced people seem to believe punishment is inherently wrong anyway, sentience or no.

Quote:
No, you can "exploit" the "loophole" right back. Because it's neither an exploit nor a loophole. It's working as intended. No actual aggression, no actual harm.


The immigration thing is a one-way loophole. I can't thrive on tax money collected in India or France. Working as intended means Americans fall behind, because we don't get a commensurate loophole. It's not fair but it is right. Once tax money is collected, I have no say over who it goes to, nor should I.

It is the presumption of the insane that American tax money should benefit Americans more than others. It would certainly be fair, since that's what other countries do, but I will no longer cry for fairness. Open the borders, so that any man may appropriate "American" resources according to the rules of property and the free market. The categorisation of "American" jobs, resources, or land is inherently regulatory on unrestricted free competition. Let it be dropped, let free exchange be free, and for the love of dear Reason let freedom at last destroy itself everywhere it exists and necessitates open borders.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #16 - Sep 14th, 2015 at 8:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 14th, 2015 at 1:16am:
The most advanced people seem to believe punishment is inherently wrong anyway, sentience or no.

Really? Could you name a few of those "most advanced people"?
What is it that makes them "advanced", their belief that evil acts should have no consequences?
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #17 - Sep 15th, 2015 at 9:32am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2015 at 5:14pm:
Are you feeling all "cucked" up?

I've been thoroughly un-cucked.
  
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Jeff
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #18 - Sep 15th, 2015 at 5:04pm
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I've been thoroughly un-cucked.

Does that mean you're no longer part of "the Right"?
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #19 - Sep 15th, 2015 at 6:16pm
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The Right includes cucks and non-cucks.
  
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