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Jeff
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #30 - Sep 28th, 2015 at 10:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 28th, 2015 at 4:13am:
Advanced ≠ Victorious

Do you think that Statism being victorious over liberty means Statism is more advanced?

It's a permeating cultural idea that pacifism is the most advanced ideology. And I can certainly see the progression toward it.

No, I'm saying pacifists owe their lives and the security of their property to people who are willing to fight barbarians and to establish and preserve civilized societies.

Pacifists are a fringe group of dependent people. They've always been around, and they've never helped advance or preserve civilization.

Pacifism, like Communism and AnCap, can't exist in the world unless barbarians are controlled or eliminated.

Advanced civilized people try hard to control barbarians.

Pacifists posture and wring their hands because barbarians are being killed to protect pacifists.
  

"Free hate speech"
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The Opposition
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #31 - Sep 30th, 2015 at 5:27am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 28th, 2015 at 10:08am:
No, I'm saying pacifists owe their lives and the security of their property to people who are willing to fight barbarians and to establish and preserve civilized societies.

Pacifists are a fringe group of dependent people. They've always been around, and they've never helped advance or preserve civilization.

Pacifism, like Communism and AnCap, can't exist in the world unless barbarians are controlled or eliminated.

Advanced civilized people try hard to control barbarians.

Pacifists posture and wring their hands because barbarians are being killed to protect pacifists.


That's pretty much true, if by "wring their hands" you mean they condemn the violence.

Pacifism doesn't work. The defensive force clause of the NAP is a bandaid, designed to make an ideology viable which is inherently unviable: Violence is wrong. So you have to add the caveat, "But it's actually okay if he did it to you first."

We both know, however, that actions are not made right or wrong because of what someone did or did not do to you. We wouldn't give a Holocaust victim a free pass to shoot up the Post Office, and neither should we give a free pass to Sandy to hit Billy because Billy hit her first... if we truly believe violence is wrong. Because two wrongs do not make a right.

For practical purposes, defensive force is necessary. For moral purposes, it's indistinguishable from aggressive force.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #32 - Sep 30th, 2015 at 8:36am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 5:27am:
For practical purposes, defensive force is necessary. For moral purposes, it's indistinguishable from aggressive force.

Maybe to a moral midget like you, but to normal people, self defense is an inherent right and completely moral.
  

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Alan Jones
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Re: To all libertarians
Reply #33 - Sep 30th, 2015 at 6:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 5:27am:
We both know, however, that actions are not made right or wrong because of what someone did or did not do to you.

That's absurd, your statement is the equivalent of "cars are not made pretty or not because of what color they're painted". What someone did or didn't do to me determines whether my actions constitute initiatory force or not. Defensive or retaliatory "punching someone in the face" is not the same action as initiatory "punching someone in the face".

The Opposition wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 5:27am:
We wouldn't give a Holocaust victim a free pass to shoot up the Post Office, and neither should we give a free pass to Sandy to hit Billy because Billy hit her first... if we truly believe violence is wrong.

We don't believe violence is wrong, it just sometimes coincides with what we believe is wrong. Sandy is perfectly within her rights to knock Billy's teeth out, if Billy initiated force against her.
  
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