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Jeff
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Why Free Trade is Good
Sep 11th, 2015 at 3:04pm
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Aside from the fact that all rigorous scientific studies for a long time have shown that there are economic benefits on both sides of trades, there is also the good effect of connections.

People who regularly trade with each other, do business together, develop bonds of mutual trust and respect, no matter their nationalism, race or religion.

When you add to this the fact that both sides profit, it creates powerful connections between people that lead to exchanges of knowledge and opinions, "cultural exchange" on a purely private and very effective level. Interested person to interested person.

Trade partners are motivated to work out cultural and religious differences, because thy profit from trading with other cultures.

It's exactly like free trade within a small community.

Everybody benefits.

  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #1 - Sep 11th, 2015 at 3:14pm
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The free movement of goods is good.

The free movement of labor has disastrous political and social consequences.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #2 - Sep 11th, 2015 at 3:20pm
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The free movement of labor has disastrous political and social consequences.

You mean I shouldn't have been allowed to leave my very first (really crappy) job?

Oh, you mean immigration!

All the people over the history of the U.S. who came here to work, to labor, in every sort of way, were disastrous for the U.S.?

Nah, you just talking out your ass, as usual.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #3 - Sep 11th, 2015 at 11:53pm
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The free movement of labor has disastrous political and social consequences.


Citation required here.

Its a bold statement, yes, and I'm not saying you're wrong.  but you'll need to back it up. 
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #4 - Sep 12th, 2015 at 9:58am
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What evidence would you accept, seriously?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #5 - Sep 12th, 2015 at 11:05am
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What evidence would you accept, seriously?

Something that showed that the (relatively) free immigration of people who came to the U.S. to work, over our entire history, has had, "disastrous" results".
Something that showed that people being free to move and change jobs within the U.S. has had "disastrous results".

Or I suppose you could identify some country that doesn't permit people to move and change jobs at will that has done really well economically... obviously, hardly anybody wants to migrate to those types of countries, so they don't have meaningful data to offer in that regard.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #6 - Sep 15th, 2015 at 10:23am
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The later waves of non-Anglo European immigrants voted (successfully) for socialist labor policies.

As blacks migrated northward, they destroyed the areas they moved into.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #7 - Sep 15th, 2015 at 4:51pm
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The later waves of non-Anglo European immigrants voted (successfully) for socialist labor policies.

There were plenty of tribal minded barbarians prior to that time, who also "voted for socialist... policies", but, prior to FDR, our Constitution prohibited our government from implementing "socialist policies". What a great idea!

'Progressive' government destroys everything it touches. 'Progressive' governments destroyed our cities.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #8 - Sep 16th, 2015 at 7:40am
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This would have been a good thread for Opposition's post about "fair trade".
Free trade is as fair as it gets, no favoritism, no cronies, just people offering things for sale, and other people buying them if they want them and they like the price.
  
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stevea
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Re: Why Free Trade is Good
Reply #9 - Sep 18th, 2015 at 3:12pm
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Free im/em-igration is a real topic.

As long a we aren't subsidising labor with social services (like publicly schools and welfare and social security) then at first blush free *igration would seem like a great idea.  Either the labor can go to the jobs, or the jobs can go to the labor - and in some cases like agriculture, or service industry, the labor has to go to the jobs.  We can't transfer farmland to Mexico, nor have tonight's burger flipped in another nation.

But this is incomplete ... it only addresses the change in labor.

==

Why do we have nations with selective entrance&exit border rules ?  All nations have border policies and the vast majority are created to allow immigration of selectively productive ppl, and some are created to disallow emigration of productive ppl.   Cuba will allow criminals and the disabled to emigrate ,but not doctors.  Canada will allow the young & educated with assets an desirable skills to immigrate, but not fruit pickers with 5th grade educations.
 
Nations appear to want higher national wealth. - more production per capita.
--

But why are nations like US Canada rich and the entire rest of the Western hemisphere dramatically poorer ?  That is the goal - right ?  I believe the entire difference is due to property rights,  reasonably free markets. rule of law, capital formation - and nothing else.


It's hard for us to believe, but in most of the world you can never really own property in a meaningful sense.   There are no deeds or land offices that show titles & transfers.  Your claim to the place you live and grew up or farm in, is a tale your parents told about how your great-grand-dad built there - so you face legal challenges from  those  with alternate tales.

This not only applies to real-estate, but under napoleonic code (which much national law is derived from) someone might be able to make claims on property in strange ways to our ears.   The actual care-takers  of animals would own their offspring for example, or they mix the concepts of contracts w/ ownership (similar to a lien, but with ownership rights).  It seems a hodge-podge of feudal/medieval thinking.  Unlike English law where contracts  & property rights are the beginning, Napoleonic law infers property rights from a of other conditions.

Without clear ownership rights free markets can't operate well.     Because title is always cloudy - you can't safely buy&sell property, nor use it to borrow (a capital formation deficit).  The property itself carries a risk of rescission of ownership rights - so it has lower value.

Rule of law is a given.  When ownership is in question, or when civil contracts go awry, we let some independent civil court review the written laws & contracts and arbitrate some reasonably fair outcome.   Then everyone has an interest in reading & following the rules.  But what if your court system is corrupt ? What if laws are not all written down but instead involve an subjective assessment  arbitrator ?  What if the arbiter is not elected but appointed ?

Capital formation ?    Of course you can't borrow against property with a dubious.  There is a good reason that most Islamic nations are either dirt poor or live on selling natural resources - no access to capital.

So the ownership problem makes markets (incl the market for money = capital) work inefficiently and leads to large scale relative impoverishment over time.

I think the solution is just as obvious as the problem, but very hard to implement.
--

So what of migration ?  It's more than labor.  Immigrants may bring their values and gain a righ tto vote & shape laws and mores.  If enough of the home-grown econo-idiots align with some  mexican/guatemalans who fail to understand WHY their former naion were poor - then we will get a very poor outcome.

We should have a vested interest in two things - when we select immigrants.  1/ Do they appreciate the reasons why the nation they are immigrating to is relatively wealthy ?   2/ Are they capable of adding to that productivity, rather than detracting from it ?

  
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