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Jeff
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The League of Civilized nations
Sep 30th, 2015 at 5:14pm
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I was thinking about the benefits to the Iroquois nation, the League of Civilized Tribes, and all the benefits that accrued to them from being civilized. They became rich and powerful, and other tribes stopped messing with them.

So I see a need today for a League of Civilized nations.

Why should we "Unite" with nations who are our enemies and have barbaric forms of government? We shouldn't. Nobody wants to except people in our government and the military industrial complex.

Of course by "civilized form of government" I mean one that recognizes that it exists to serve it's Citizens, under the law.

And by "barbaric forms of government" I mean those that force their people to serve them, or some fantastical "greater good", which means serving the government in practice.

Anyway, for League members, I propose the top 30 countries from the latest Human Freedom Index. Many of them need to make large improvements, including the U.S., but we have to start somewhere, and we need allies with reliable governments. Barbaric governments aren't reliable.
  

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genepool
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #1 - Sep 30th, 2015 at 8:22pm
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That may not be inconsistent with freedom.

Western government is free. I give you that.

Did you know that tax is higher in western civilization? So there goes one most important aspect of freedom. Freedom to make money.

What do you want to do once you have money? Have many hot chicks. Polygamy is illegal. There goes another important freedom. Freedom to bang as many chicks as possible.

The muslim countries are not free. You're not free to differ in opinion. You're not free to change your government. But some like dubai are pretty fine.

I'd say the way things are are already good. Move from one country to another.

Then we have singapore. Same with muslims. Nothing fancy. Restriction of freedom of speech. But hei... You won't get mugged in singapore. Seriously.

Where is the right to live in western civilization when anyone can be killed by robber easily due to high crime rate? And yea Singapore and Hong Kong percapita income is higher than US. I think a combination of previous british rule and chinese work ethic seems to yield tons of money.

I'd say each countries has it's pluses and minus. Want a truly libertarian ideal? It doesn't exist yet. Concentrate on what works and embrace it.
  
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stevea
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #2 - Sep 30th, 2015 at 11:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 5:14pm:
...
So I see a need today for a League of Civilized nations.

Why should we "Unite" with nations who are our enemies and have barbaric forms of government? We shouldn't. Nobody wants to except people in our government and the military industrial complex.


Modestly disagree.  I always consider the UN as the "Club for Dictators", but so long as we use it as a debate stage, a way to diffuse conflict, and not a source of wisdom nor anything to be emulated, it's a good thing.

Quote:
Of course by "civilized form of government" I mean one that recognizes that it exists to serve it's Citizens, under the law.

And by "barbaric forms of government" I mean those that force their people to serve them, or some fantastical "greater good", which means serving the government in practice.

Anyway, for League members, I propose the top 30 countries from the latest Human Freedom Index. Many of them need to make large improvements, including the U.S., but we have to start somewhere, and we need allies with reliable governments. Barbaric governments aren't reliable.


Good idea, but  I think the Cato HFI isn't an ideal measure.
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/human-freedom-index-files/human-free...
Considering the massive taxes in Sweden & DEnmark should never make any top 10 list.   As much as I like Canada the restrictions of freedom of speech/press wrt trials and their preference for social systems like their HC system are appalling to me.  Germany gets a high ranking but IMO it's a very un-free place to start a biz (as is much of the EU).   Not horrible, as a ranking but feels wrong.

I suspect the Freedom House measure fits just a little better, but still misses the point.
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2015/table-country-ratings

Oddly Heritage.org's economic freedom index corresponds a bit closer to what i would like to see,
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
except it totally misses the political freedom aspect.

There is a simpler measurement that works about as well as all those subjective ones.  Since government is force, why not measure how little 'force' is applied ?   Simply determine how much of GDP is spent by government.

Note that this graph properly puts punitive tax states at the bottom of the list (but misses some other features).
===

So what would the LoCN do  exactly ?   Promote improvements in liberties I hope.  Permit free trade among I hope.   Would it work ?

Perhaps give USA a wake-up call that's it's becoming a police state ?

Could it stop tribes messing w/ us ?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #3 - Oct 1st, 2015 at 10:22am
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stevea wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 11:25pm:
So what would the LoCN do  exactly ?   Promote improvements in liberties I hope.  Permit free trade among I hope.   Would it work ?

Perhaps give USA a wake-up call that's it's becoming a police state ?

Could it stop tribes messing w/ us ?

If the U.N. actually functioned to prevent wars, I might think it worthwhile, but it doesn't seem to have done that at all.

I'll support any reasonable metric for determining which governments are civilized enough to join the LCN, and I hope it would do all the things you mentioned.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #4 - Oct 1st, 2015 at 10:26am
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genepool wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 8:22pm:
I'd say each countries has it's pluses and minus. Want a truly libertarian ideal? It doesn't exist yet. Concentrate on what works and embrace it.

The U.S. Constitution, as it was intended to operate, is a very good approximation of the libertarian ideal of civilized government, because "what works" is individual and economic liberty under a framework of law that limits government to protecting it's citizens lives, liberty and property.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #5 - Oct 1st, 2015 at 12:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 5:14pm:
Anyway, for League members, I propose the top 30 countries from the latest Human Freedom Index. Many of them need to make large improvements, including the U.S., but we have to start somewhere, and we need allies with reliable governments. Barbaric governments aren't reliable.


Its nice to note that ALL of the BRICS Nations would be excluded from the LoCN. I see what you did there, Jeff!   Wink

Brazil
Russia
India
China
South Africa

  
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Jeff
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #6 - Oct 1st, 2015 at 5:15pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 1st, 2015 at 12:00pm:
Its nice to note that ALL of the BRICS Nations would be excluded from the LoCN. I see what you did there, Jeff!   Wink

Brazil
Russia
India
China
South Africa


Actually, I did screw up, I should have gone to at least 31, the Republic of Korea, the non-communist one which is prosperous and as free as is possible with the constant threat from the Communist North.
  

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genepool
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #7 - Oct 1st, 2015 at 8:19pm
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Using government gdp as a measure is a good idea.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #8 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 2:02am
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genepool wrote on Oct 1st, 2015 at 8:19pm:
Using government gdp as a measure is a good idea.


Government GDP?

LOL.

A Government never produced anything.  Its the people who make goods and services to fuel a robust economy.

Government is a GDP killer.  The gov't. Spending of the citizens' Wealth undermines economic growth by transferring the wealth and resources from the productive sector of the economy to government (the NON-productive sector) programs.

Also, Governments have a tendency to over-regulate, which is detrimental to GDP because it forces unnatural behavior by the private sector.

But I think that Debt-to-GDP Ratio would be a good criteria for the HFI. 

A good number to shoot for would be 12% to 15%, meaning the country's debt is 15% of their GDP. The lower, the better.

Of course, the US's ranking would drop significantly because our Debt actually exceeds our GDP!  Shocked





 
  
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Jeff
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Re: The League of Civilized nations
Reply #9 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 8:39am
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Admission to the League of Civilized Nations is really predicated on the candidate nation having a civilized government. No nation currently has a completely civilized government, but some are obviously much better than others.

The obvious question is, "Do the People control the government, or does the Government control the people?"

A free economy will produce lots of wealth, but if the same government that allows a free economy denies free speech and freedom of conscience, perhaps by mandating a State Religion, it isn't a civilized government.

Singapore ranks 43rd on the HFI, because even though their economic freedom is pretty high at 8.54, their personal freedom is pretty low. A civilized government doesn't deny people freedom of either sort.
  

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