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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does Blackmail violate the NAP? (Read 2857 times)
jzk
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #20 - Oct 14th, 2015 at 5:43pm
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I didn't think you would be willing to do the analysis. 

Jeff wrote on Oct 14th, 2015 at 5:40pm:
No. 'Progressives' are a far cry from destroying the Common Law. They'll keep trying though. The Common Law was created by "the libertarian view".

  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #21 - Oct 14th, 2015 at 5:49pm
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jzk wrote on Oct 14th, 2015 at 5:43pm:
I didn't think you would be willing to do the analysis. 


Hey, you're the one who's been admitted. I can't imagine why, since you never learned the basis of the Law. Probably it wasn't taught to you. Maybe you didn't think it was relevant.
  

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stevea
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #22 - Oct 14th, 2015 at 8:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 14th, 2015 at 5:42pm:
How did you learn my secrets? You stole them. That in itself is aggressive, it's theft.


That is not in the definition of criminal blackmail.

Let's say I found out, by entirely lawful and moral means that you did something as a kid that would totally ruin your reputation and career.

If I publish that info in a blog or on a billboards, that's entirely lawful.

If instead I go to you and say "give me money or I'll publish it", that's the crime of blackmail.

It's a form of extortion like, "give me your money or I'll harm you" except the harm in the case of blackmail is MAY be protected speech.
--

Of course if I stole the info, then that's aggression.

==

I'm on jzk's side.   If the info was obtained w/o aggression, and if I offer you a contract where I agree to not publish the info in exchange for consideration - where is the aggression ?


  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #23 - Oct 15th, 2015 at 10:12am
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stevea wrote on Oct 14th, 2015 at 8:53pm:
I'm on jzk's side.   If the info was obtained w/o aggression, and if I offer you a contract where I agree to not publish the info in exchange for consideration - where is the aggression ?



If it's a contract I'd sign willingly without your threat to expose information I want kept secret, that would be fine, but you propose a "contract" that I'm only "willing " to sign under threat.
Why are you threatening to expose my secrets? So you can blackmail me and extort money from me, money that I will not give you without your threat.

Remove your threat to expose my secrets, then just ask me for money, we'll see how that goes.

I'm still trying to figure how you obtained my secrets "without aggression". Propose some possible method.
  

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jzk
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #24 - Oct 15th, 2015 at 12:02pm
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I have pictures of you and your girlfriend making out at a bar.

A "threat" is not aggression.  I can "threaten" you that I will not sell you my car unless you give me 20,000.  Is that a threat?

Jeff wrote on Oct 15th, 2015 at 10:12am:
If it's a contract I'd sign willingly without your threat to expose information I want kept secret, that would be fine, but you propose a "contract" that I'm only "willing " to sign under threat.
Why are you threatening to expose my secrets? So you can blackmail me and extort money from me, money that I will not give you without your threat.

Remove your threat to expose my secrets, then just ask me for money, we'll see how that goes.

I'm still trying to figure how you obtained my secrets "without aggression". Propose some possible method.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #25 - Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:01am
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jzk wrote on Oct 15th, 2015 at 12:02pm:
I have pictures of you and your girlfriend making out at a bar.

A "threat" is not aggression.  I can "threaten" you that I will not sell you my car unless you give me 20,000.  Is that a threat?


If I was making out in public, it's hardly a secret, so I won't pay you to not publish those pictures.

Making threats is illegal, but it seems you're incapable of understanding why.

Suppose you had pictures my Boss' wife and I had taken while we romped in a hotel room. Putting aside how you came to have them, if you tell me, "Pay me $20,000 or I'll send them to your Boss", that would be blackmail and illegal.
It's not a "contract" between the two of us, it's a threat. Without that threat, there is no way I'll even give you a nickel. You are coercing me to do something I would not otherwise do.

You are correct at least in one way, there is no threat involved in voluntary transactions like me buying your car for an agreed on price.
  

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jzk
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #26 - Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:15am
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Supposed I have a picture of you with your girlfriend on your lap on a pier in the island of Bimini.  But now you are running for president. 

I offer to "sell you" the picture for $200,000.

Am I violating the NAP?

Making threats is not illegal.  What if I threaten to quit my job unless you go get me a cup of coffee?  Illegal?

Jeff wrote on Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:01am:
If I was making out in public, it's hardly a secret, so I won't pay you to not publish those pictures.

Making threats is illegal, but it seems you're incapable of understanding why.

Suppose you had pictures my Boss' wife and I had taken while we romped in a hotel room. Putting aside how you came to have them, if you tell me, "Pay me $20,000 or I'll send them to your Boss", that would be blackmail and illegal.
It's not a "contract" between the two of us, it's a threat. Without that threat, there is no way I'll even give you a nickel. You are coercing me to do something I would not otherwise do.

You are correct at least in one way, there is no threat involved in voluntary transactions like me buying your car for an agreed on price.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #27 - Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:26am
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jzk wrote on Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:15am:
Supposed I have a picture of you with your girlfriend on your lap on a pier in the island of Bimini.  But now you are running for president. 

I offer to "sell you" the picture for $200,000.

Am I violating the NAP?

Making threats is not illegal.  What if I threaten to quit my job unless you go get me a cup of coffee?  Illegal?


Work on learning what actually constitutes a threat, then I won't have to go through every possible scenario, no matter how ridiculous, on a case by case basis.
Making threats is illegal. Blackmail is illegal. Both are illegal because they violate the NAP.
  

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jzk
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #28 - Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:40am
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You can't go through any scenarios because your positions are not logically consistent.

I just gave you Gary Hart's scenario. 

In that case, if I threaten to make the picture public unless you pay, does that violate the NAP.  Yes or no?

Jeff wrote on Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:26am:
Work on learning what actually constitutes a threat, then I won't have to go through every possible scenario, no matter how ridiculous, on a case by case basis.
Making threats is illegal. Blackmail is illegal. Both are illegal because they violate the NAP.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Blackmail violate the NAP?
Reply #29 - Oct 16th, 2015 at 11:01am
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jzk wrote on Oct 16th, 2015 at 10:40am:
You can't go through any scenarios because your positions are not logically consistent.

I just gave you Gary Hart's scenario. 

In that case, if I threaten to make the picture public unless you pay, does that violate the NAP.  Yes or no?


Would I pay you without the threat? No.
That means the transaction is not voluntary. The NAP is all about voluntary transactions. Coerced transactions violate the NAP.

I'll keep saying that, consistently, for every scenario you propose.

I guess I have to add, things you are "forced" to do in order to support your life don't count as coercion, because it can't be my fault that you need to eat. It isn't anyone's fault.
  

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