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BobK71
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #10 - Jan 20th, 2017 at 7:56am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 4:49pm:
In Afghanistan? A stable and united government would have appeared if we had just stayed out of the way? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I assume it would have been one of those barbarian Islamist governments that are "stable", as for instance... Well, you tell me.


After the Soviet-backed regime was defeated, the US and UN went in and created a government of comfortable expats, the Rome-based deposed king, out-of-harms-way leaders of refugee camps, and even the Soviet-backed butcher Najibullah.  Everyone, that is, except leaders who actually had local support and real military power, the Mujahadeens who had fought for a decade to remove the Soviets.

Many American intelligence officials had worked alongside these Mujahadeens and come to know and respect them.  Apparently, their only fatal crime was their Afghan independence, that would have made them defy US influence.

What ensued was, surprise of surprises, a total disintegration of power and civil war for another decade.

What was the US doing after 9/11?  The same thing with a different cast of Western-backed 'leaders.'
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #11 - Jan 20th, 2017 at 8:35am
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BobK71 wrote on Jan 20th, 2017 at 7:56am:
After the Soviet-backed regime was defeated, the US and UN went in and created a government of comfortable expats, the Rome-based deposed king, out-of-harms-way leaders of refugee camps, and even the Soviet-backed butcher Najibullah.  Everyone, that is, except leaders who actually had local support and real military power, the Mujahadeens who had fought for a decade to remove the Soviets.

Many American intelligence officials had worked alongside these Mujahadeens and come to know and respect them.  Apparently, their only fatal crime was their Afghan independence, that would have made them defy US influence.

What ensued was, surprise of surprises, a total disintegration of power and civil war for another decade.

What was the US doing after 9/11?  The same thing with a different cast of Western-backed 'leaders.'

So all the various tribal leaders, terrorist factions and religious factions of Afghanistan would actually unite and form a stable government if we and the Russians would only let them?

That's very far fetched Bob.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #12 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 2:11pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 20th, 2017 at 8:35am:
So all the various tribal leaders, terrorist factions and religious factions of Afghanistan would actually unite and form a stable government if we and the Russians would only let them?

That's very far fetched Bob.


You can never prove a counter-factual, but it's hard to imagine things being worse than they turned out over the last 25 years or so for Afghanistan.

Especially damning are that (1) things have gone exactly opposite to the supposed wishes of the US/UN when they went meddling (ie to create a stable, diverse, power-shared government,) (2) it's evident that the West didn't do the barest homework when putting that government together, and (3) it's really hard to imagine State Department officials, of all people, are naive enough to think their supposed goal was more than a pipe dream without the help of the mujahadeen, but those pipe dreams were what they presented to the public.

Pipe dreams such as:
- Sunnis and Shia should have a power-shared government (and use the dream to depose the democratically elected Maliki.)
- Middle East regimes shouldn't fight brutal wars against armed rebels (and use the dream to create civil wars to depose Qadaffi and Assad.)

No, I'd place my bet on a charismatic, locally supported mujahadeen leader any day.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #13 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 2:13pm
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Test
  
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #14 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 2:47pm
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Of course the Deep State is real.

Bob, it is hard to say how the 20th century would have played out for Arab-types in the absence of 1) the Cold War & Deep State foreign adventurism and 2) Israel, but at any rate the Deep State must be exposed and destroyed.
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #15 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 4:38pm
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... the Deep State must be exposed and destroyed.


Rome wasn't destroyed in a day. 

We're probably going to have to wait for the State to bankrupt itself,  and with Trump proposing trillions for rebuilding infrastructure and the military, it may be sooner than later.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #16 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 5:19pm
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BobK71 wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 2:11pm:
You can never prove a counter-factual, but it's hard to imagine things being worse than they turned out over the last 25 years or so for Afghanistan.

Certainly being invaded by the Soviet Union wasn't ideal for the people of Afghanistan, but neither were their various wars with Britain.

The times when things have been "best" for Afghanistan were when the various tribes were left alone to fight among themselves... Even that was by no stretch of the imagination "good".
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #17 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 5:20pm
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BobK71 wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 2:11pm:
No, I'd place my bet on a charismatic, locally supported mujahadeen leader any day.

What a stupid idea.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #18 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 5:23pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
We're probably going to have to wait for the State to bankrupt itself,  and with Trump proposing trillions for rebuilding infrastructure and the military, it may be sooner than later.

One trillion was what he said... Chump change compared to what's already been promised for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, government pensions  and "welfare".
  
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BobK71
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Re: Is there really a "Deep State"?
Reply #19 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 12:08pm
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Of course the Deep State is real.

Bob, it is hard to say how the 20th century would have played out for Arab-types in the absence of 1) the Cold War & Deep State foreign adventurism and 2) Israel, but at any rate the Deep State must be exposed and destroyed.


You have to wonder... is public ignorance about global affairs so bad nowadays that a casual review of news analysis out there can reveal their schemes, and yet they generally get away with them.  The Clintons practically specialized in mucking up Haiti and making a pretty buck out of it, but Hillary almost became president.

The MO of the global elites is pretty clear now with 500 years of history behind it.

The top financiers seem to act in pretty good unison:
- Attach yourself to a country with the potential to be the next global top dog.
- Work with its political elite to strengthen the country and blow a national financial bubble at the same time.
- 'Earn' untold wealth.
- When the bubble threatens to burst, use imperial power to get the world to keep it afloat.
- Before the bubble finally bursts anyway, latch onto the next country.
- Rinse and repeat.

A national pump-and-dump!
  
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